Talk:DRE voting machine

Comment by intial creator

I'm pretty terrified of the idea of unverifiable, unauditable elections so someone more pro-DRE's should go through and NPOV things. I tried my best to present the good side of DRE's Zenyu 16:51, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)

Security

Any discussion of DRE security is incomplete without mentioning the Princeton virus that demonstrated changing vote counts on the version of Diebold DREs used in some 2000-2002 US elections. [1]

Limiting compromise to source code gives the misleading impression that keeping the source code secure (and not public) will keep the DRE secure. The condition ""If the security of the DRE source code software is compromised"" could be more completely rephrased as: ""If the DRE is compromised (such as through hacks inserted in the source code, replacement of any software component, loading a computer virus, remote access via infra-red, bluetouth, wifi, modem, etc. or direct access to the hardware)"". -- Dan Oetting 70.59.60.176 16:10, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Point of clarification

I'm from Sydney, Australia. Australia DOES NOT use any DRE or other voting machines - in fact no where in the whole of Australia that I'm aware of. It could be there electronic tallying occurs to count the ballot papers, however manual recount is possible and occurs in some cases. The voting system is administered by a Federal body, the Australian Electoral Commission at http://www.aec.gov.au/, who ensure the process is accurate, fair and non-partisan. While there are occasional allegations of vote fraud, the system enjoys the respect of a large majority of Australians.

I believe you are mistaken. DRE's are used in Canberra and according to the FAQ at the ACT Electoral Commission, the software is audited and open to the public for examination, but is not required to keep a paper trail, much less a voter verified paper trail. The security is much better than in the US because the software is public, was audited for functionality, and there are mechanisms in place to make sure the software on the machine matches the software that has been audited. However the lack of a audit trail means someone could introduce an exploitable bug that could go undetected, and look innocent once detected. This is especially true because the Linux OS it runs on top of is complex and hence is likely to have some undetected bugs. --Zenyu 14:35, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

Proposed merge 2006

Voting machine is really talking about DRE voting machines and not other types like lever machines or such. Since the Voting machine page is largely sub-standard, if there are any iotas of goodness, they should be merged here, no? -- Joebeone (Talk) 23:04, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Voting machine is no longer talking about DRE voting machines exclusively. 68.50.103.212 20:43, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Updates

• Vendor's claims of security: updated for accuracy and obvious NPOV
• The DRE voting machines typically take the form of a box or enclosure (rather like an ATM) or a laptop computer.

This is inaccurate and has been removed. If accurate it would still be incorrectly labled under Benefits of computerized voting machines

• Indian voting machines use a two-piece system with a balloting unit presenting the voter with a button (momentary switch) for each choice connected by a cable to an electronic ballot box. [2][3]

Incorrectly labled under Benefits of computerized voting machines moved to Types of DRE voting machines

• DRE voting systems are often favored because they can incorporate assistive technologies for handicapped people, allowing them to vote without involving another person in the process. They can also offer immediate feedback on the validity of a particular ballot so that the voter can have an opportunity to correct problems if they are noticed. This is particularly important, with a good user interface the problem of spoiled ballots could be greatly reduced by using computerized voting machines. If the votes are not counted however, there is little point in determining the intent of the voter.

Rewritten for clarity and accuracy.

• Some precincts require that the entire ballot be presented to the voter simultaneously. This requirement was intended to reduce undervotes, when a voter votes in some races but misses others. DRE systems in these polling places need particularly large screens to accommodate all choices and it was discovered in the 2004 U.S. elections that this increased undervotes because the voter was required to push a small VOTE button on the screen before the votes would be counted, and many voters missed this and their vote was not counted.

This requires a source. Also, this would not be considered an undervote. An undervote would require a partial vote. If this information is accurate, none of the voters affected would have registered as voted at all. Lastly, why would thi be listed as a Benefits?

I could source this (people pushing a "vote" button too early or not at all) if we wanted to include it. The prose in italics would definitely need cleaning up (but it's probably best left off the page).

I believe the statement that "An undervote would require a partial vote." is incorrect. Undervotes are per each race/contest. They can be easily defined as "An undervote is where a voter votes for fewer than the minimum number of allowed choices for a given race or contest on a ballot." Many political and social scientists who study undervoting and overvoting use undervoting in top-ticket races as a proxy for a particular voting technology's rate of error. I think what you're referring to is a blank ballot being cast or the ballot not being cast at all because the voter forgot to push a "vote" button (as is characteristic to the Sequoia AVC Advantage machine and the Danaher ELECTronic 1242 machines). I suppose there could be a benefit argued for for full-face ballot systems although pagination means that it would be very easy to scale up in terms of ballot content.

I'm not arguing that any of this should go back, just being precise. -- Joebeone (Talk) 22:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

• It is because of the benefits of DRE's and the HAVA that most DRE's have been installed, not because they make rigging elections easier. Some elections officials have even gone back to paper and pencil when informed of the problems with un-auditable DRE's.

Obviously this would need a source. The POV in this section is just not appropriate. ("not because they make rigging elections easier", come one). DRE's and HAVA section will be added.

Yikes. It looks like I wrote over some of your edits when I was trying to add <ref> tags. Hopefully, I put things back where they should have been. Sorry about that. Is it just me or does there seem to be something wrong with the MediaWiki software today? -- Joebeone (Talk) 22:28, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Finally, I think I've got everything back between the accidental over-writes that happened... Here's a summary [4] of what's changed today. One problem I seem to have been having was that Wikipedia was serving up older versions of the page as the current version. Anyway, let's work from this if there are no issues. I know Rspeer valued some of the external links that were removed, we might consider adding them back. -- Joebeone (Talk) 22:46, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

External Links

What’s the general consensus here on what’s appropriate in the external links section?

• A three year old Wired article?
• Rebecca Mercuri’s opinion page (last updated 9/1/05)?
• Links to groups that relate?

Personally I don’t see how these things are relevant. What do you think? Electiontechnology 09:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

VVPAT

I moved some information to the Voter Verified Paper Audit Trail page and added a "See" link to the main article. I also expanded it. I also added some more audit related information. I left he Dr. Mercuri info because it was directly related, but the crytography (Chaum, VoteHere...) were moved. I think they server a greater purpose. I really think the Voter Verified Paper Audit Trail is in need of an update. There has been a lot of new information relating to that topic recently. Electiontechnology 21:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

History

The article gives no indication of when DRE voting machines were first developed, where and when they were first deployed, etc. - Jmabel | Talk 19:52, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

NIST recommendations to eliminate DRE

I heard a news story yesterday to the effect that the N.I.S.T. had determined direct recording machines should be de-certified altogether, and that the voter verified paper trail (a roll of paper showing the votes) should also be eliminated in favor of a paper ballot (presumably printed by the machine and checked by the voter) due to numerous strange vote total events in recent elections. Does anyone have the official report for incorporation here? Edison 19:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

We're all awaiting the TGDC Plenary Meeting, December 4-5, 2006. Check out the prerelease materials. --Electiontechnology 19:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Taintain's and Electiontechnology's edits

• Auditing and IV is a fundamental challenge to all voting machines.
• VVPAT is only possibly part of the process. Make it a subsection if you want, but there is much more to auditing and verification than the VVPAT.

--Electiontechnology 16:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

• • if You mean "recording votes" by "IV" it's no problem to an optical scan voting system. the cross is 100% where the voter makes it. why do You mention "auditing", that was not part of my edit. please stop reverting unless You give some reason for Your claims.
  • the article isn't clear about that now either, maybe You have a better idea to rework it.
  • lab attacks: i think there is enough emphasis on the lab environment, all these attacks could easily be done by an inside attacker. the SDU-attack could be done by anybody within 25m of the election office.

--Taintain 17:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

• I mentioned "auditing" because it's a section about auditing. Maybe this is another one of your problems interpreting english...
• If you don't feel that is clear, you are more than willing to edit for clarity, but reverting to inaccurate information is unacceptable.
• Regardless if you think the attacks "could easily be done," they have not and implying otherwise is inaccurate.
• "all voting machines" cannot incorporate assistive technologies.
• You miss the point about disabled voters. It is not a matter of trust but anonymity.
• DRE feedback is not similar to the feedback of optical scan voting systems. Just because they both provide feedback does not make them in anyway similar. It is inaccurate to say "similar to optical scan voting systems."

--Electiontechnology 00:03, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• • please try to avoid the personal offense. i'm still missing any reason for You claiming that all voting machines have a challenge with their recorded votes. anyway i included i source for my claim, do You want me to roll out the concept of software independence in more detail or is the link enough ?
  • i wrote nowhere they could be easily done, i wrote they've been done in a lab environment any why. anyway i included a real life attack and wrote more details to the others. if i find the time i could make a section for each attack.

--Taintain 13:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not sure what you take offense to. I apologize if you think anything I said was intended as such. And to try to explain to you again, you seem to be missing the larger issue. This was not about software independence. It is about the entire process of a vote, from the voter through tabulation and including auditing. That is a fundamental challenge to all voting machines. I understand you take issue with one portion of that (the recording} and I even highlighted that in the following section. If you would like to put in a section on Software Independence, be my guest, but stop reverting accurate information for inaccurate information.
• Maybe you have a short memory? You said "all these attacks could easily be done by an inside attacker" in you last bullet. All I'm saying is that it needs to be clear. Putting laboratory experiments under "Attacks on DREs" is misleading.

--Electiontechnology 16:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• • to make it short: so what is the fundamental challenge of an optical scan system with the recording ? what's the use of pointing out the similarities with other systems, the differences matter.
  • i said that on the talk page, in the article i wrote "all have been done in laboratory", what You removed was "to avoid breaking any laws", why is that misleading ?

--Taintain 21:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

p.s.: please edit a bit more careful, You had one = too much and one section double

• You in no way explained your edits. See my previous points and if you want to revert have a good reason.

--Electiontechnology 22:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

• the is no fundamental challenge for an optical scan voting system in recording votes because it's just a paper ballot. so saying all voting machines have a challenge with recording is wrong. that's a good reason for reverting.

• why did You delete the VVPAT-sentence ?

--Taintain 23:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

• "recorded as cast" You have no idea what the optical scan machine recorded. I didn't say it was a challenge to record it. You misunderstand again. The very next sentence explains the difference with a voting system without a tangible ballot.
• I'm sorry you are having trouble keeping up with our conversation. I already explained that. The VVPAT is one example of a system that "can include the ability for voters to verify how their votes were cast." The VVPAT is still there, but saying "can include the ability for voters to verify how their votes were cast, known as a voter verified paper audit trail (VVPAT)" is incorrect.

--Electiontechnology 23:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC) ==Caltech Study=] this is what the caltech study says:

Yet this report also suggests a cautionary tale about placing too much faith in buying new machines alone. The greatest residual vote rate gains were not made in the states where voting machines were upgraded in a piecemeal fashion. Rather, voting machine upgrades were the most effective when the entire state was involved. The best example was Georgia, which switched over entirely to one type of voting machine (Diebold Accuvote-TS’s) and engaged in an unprecedented voter education effort. It is likely that the combined effects of these two actions, not either one alone, that led to Georgia’s stunning improvements over time.

http://www.vote.caltech.edu/media/documents/vtp_wp21v2.3.pdf RESIDUAL VOTE IN THE 2004 ELECTION, p.15

and this was in the article:

A comparative analysis by the CalTech/MIT Voting Technology Project suggests that a switch to a DRE-based system results in a significant drop in the number of spoiled ballots. Most notable is the state of Georgia, which went from second-worst to second-best in the country in terms of its "residual voting" rate after changing its voting system statewide.

i removed it because i couldn't see any reasonable way to make that part useful for this article.

Undid merge 2007

i undid the merge of Electiontechnology into Electronic voting because:

• DRE's are a relevant subject on their own (the aticle exist since 2004, about 20 articles link to it, "DRE voting" gives 53.000 results in google, ...)
• if there is DRE-specific content in Electronic voting then move it here, not the other way around
• there are own articles for Optical scan voting systems and VVPAT (which some people call a "feature" of DREs, so why not for DRE ?
• the merge wasn't discussed
• all the content about DREs got totally lost in Electronic voting
• a lot of voting computer criticism is DRE-specific, see florida

--Taintain 10:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

If you feel the merge should have been discussed, don't you think that unmerge should have been discussed, further Wikipedia policy specifically states ""you cannot do that without discussion" is not a good argument." The initial merge took place because the article had become largely duplicative. I do not disagree that DRE's are a relevant subject, only that it is difficult if not impossible to separate "DREs" from "electronic voting" without having to nearly identical articles (or one being a subset of the other). Largely the articles that link to DREs are because I linked them and have no problem correcting those links. I do not believe the components were lost and if you had take the time to read the article you would have seen that. --Electiontechnology 17:35, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

i see no reason to let you change the facts without discussion and then engaging in endless discussions if it should be reverted. yes, the pages will be redundant in parts but that's not unusual and far better then one huge article.

--Taintain 20:10, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Merge Proposal: Electronic Voting

It has been proposed that this article "DRE voting machine" be merged into Electronic voting. The primary two reasons Wikipedia policy recommends for merging pages are 1:"There are two or more pages on exactly the same subject and having the same scope." and 2: "There are two or more pages on exactly the same subject and having the same scope." Every thought, point, comment and image that exists in the DRE article exists in the Electronic voting article (#1 check). In addition to Electronic voting, the articles for Voting machine and Vote counting system cover the same scope. (#2 check) Please discuss and we will try to form consensus. Thank you. --Electiontechnology 17:52, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

If you disagree with the merger, please suggest some alternative so we don't have a completely duplicate article.

i disagree because too much stuff is DRE-specific and Electronic voting is anyway getting too big (53kb), see Wikipedia:Article size. specifically DREs which store votes just in computer memory are a big topic at the moment and it's quite useful to have all the information in one page and not scattered all over another. some sections in Electronic voting might be shortened and moved to DRE.

--Taintain 20:10, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

proposal: distribute chapter "Documented problems" to the appropriate articles (DRE, optic scan voting system]]) with "see further" in Electronic voting.--Taintain (talk) 19:37, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree as well. Electronic voting covers the entire field, while DRE voting machines deals with one kind of implementation. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Will Beback and think that DREs are obviously distinct from the larger class of electronic voting technologies... I wouldn't mind distributing the documented problems to appropriate articles. -- Joebeone (Talk) 17:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree with User Beback as well for the same reasonsJS747 (talk) 20:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Just removed the merge proposal since nobody agreed with it in 4 months.--Taintain (talk) 08:04, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Article asserts facts not in evidence

DRE locations frequently submit results later than optical scan locations. Please provide a citation for this statement based on evidence, rather than an uncorroborated assertion coming from the elections industry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bev Harris (talk • contribs) 07:15, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Not a very good page...

Hi all, as a researcher in this area, it strikes me that this page is incomplete, often incoherent and biased specifically towards a gracious view of DRE systems, which have been largely discredited. I'm not sure I can spend the time fixing it, but I can offer some thoughts if someone is interested in working on it. --Joebeone (Talk) 14:50, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Hey Joe, I definitely agree. This page is almost entirely duplicative of the electronic voting page. I supported a merge for this quite some time ago. Most of the information here is severely outdated and fairly slanted. The electronic voting page, while far from perfect, is a much more complete article. There really aren't enough editors on this topic to maintain this page. You can see from the history there haven't been substantial edits to this page in some time. -- Electiontechnology (talk) 15:24, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

At a glance I agree with ElectionTechnology, this article is mostly a duplicate of electronic voting. Perhaps a merger proposal should be floated again to see if views on the matter have changed? Bonewah (talk) 21:37, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I think it's a little chicken and egg. We need the merger because no one has the time to commit to breaking apart the electronic voting article and improving this page, but no one really has the time to shepherd the merger either. -- Electiontechnology (talk) 00:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

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Unquoted section

The "Problems with DRE voting machines" has an uncited and improperly quoted quote from Sam Browne. Moreover, I can't actually find any relevant Google search results except for this article when searching online as well.

The section should be edited or removed, I will do it myself eventually if no one jumps on this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2610:148:1F00:4000:7888:519E:75FE:9F36 (talk) 01:54, 11 December 2019 (UTC)