Talk:Kay Summersby

Comment

There is a wealth of material debunking Summersby's account of her "affair" with Eisenhower. I will try to compile some citations when I have time. Ellsworth 21:35, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The are from the Eisenhower talk page:

In a June 22, 1997 article in the Washington Post, Susan Eisenhower (granddaughter of Ike, but also a serious biographer in her own right) cites a scholarly consensus that Summersby did not write the "autobiography" at all.

In a March 1, 1998 article in the Post, Gil Troy, chairman of the history deparment at McGill U., also opines that Summersby's version of events is a fiction. In 1948, Summersby published a war memoir, "Ike Was My Boss", that made no mention of the "affair".

Ellsworth

Here is a wild thought: Kay Summersby was telling the truth about the affair and felt able to do so after Eisenhower was dead and at the end of her own life. That was the 1970s. Her affection for her former lover prevented her from telling the truth in the late 1940s, when it might have undermined his political chances. Everyone knew that Eisenhower was ambitious. During the Second World War, Eisenhower, his peers, his subordinates and the press played by different rules (and better rules) than their counterparts do today. Consider how they treated FDR's paralysis and his relationship with his mistress. Compare that with the treatment of Bill Clinton. The mistake so often made, aside of course from trying to rewrite the past to clean up the indiscretions of favorite conservative historical figures, is to read the past as if it were like the present. That particular mistake is called presentism and competent historians know better than to be fooled by its temptations. (Unsigned comment 13:47, 7 May 2005 by 66.20.28.21)

Wikipedia is not for wild thoughts, not even your persistent ones repeated in January, February, March and May 2005:

• "Eisenhower's prudish defenders" is a POV phrase
• "penetrative sexual act" is a statement which requires evidence
• "Eisenhower was sexually impotent" is another

So either justify them or stop putting them in. And remember the advice in the arbitration case--Henrygb 20:06, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Here is another wild thought: you are oblivious to sarcasm. Were you unable to address the ideas previously presented? Please consider them again: Kay Summersby was telling the truth about the affair and felt able to do so after Eisenhower was dead and at the end of her own life. That was the 1970s. Her affection for her former lover prevented her from telling the truth in the late 1940s, when it might have undermined his political chances. Everyone knew that Eisenhower was ambitious. During the Second World War, Eisenhower, his peers, his subordinates and the press played by different rules (and better rules) than their counterparts do today. Consider how they treated FDR's paralysis and his relationship with his mistress. Compare that with the treatment of Bill Clinton. The mistake so often made, aside of course from trying to rewrite the past to clean up the indiscretions of favorite conservative historical figures, is to read the past as if it were like the present. That particular mistake is called presentism and competent historians know better than to be fooled by its temptations. (unsigned comment 22:44, 7 May 2005 by User:66.20.28.21

OK, grant that Summersby may have been guided by scruples in her 1948 memoir and that Ike may have been sexually impotent. Can you cite your sources on these points to support your changes to the article? Ellsworth 23:02, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Given that Jean Edward Smith's bio of Eisenhower buys the claims of the affair, I don't think it's NPOV to reject Summersby's claims so strongly. --Tbanderson (talk) 22:03, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I've added a paragraph with some of Smith's evidence for the affair. It shouldn't be taken uncritically, as with any historian; but the article as it stands seems dubious of the affair, so citing to the work of a respected biographer aids in NPOV. If anyone sees any criticisms of Smith, please cite! --Tbanderson (talk) 14:27, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Dates

The birth date is different than at Find-A-Grave. Lincher 18:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Ike and Summersby

President Truman's cousin, General Louis W. Truman, said Harry discussed Ike's realtionship with Summersby with the cousin at the White House in 1948. This is oral history, recorded Dec 7, 1991, on file at the Truman Library:

(Niel M.) JOHNSON: You visited him in the Oval Office?

(Louis) TRUMAN: A number of times. From New York, I'd come down there to Washington, in those two years. My wife could not move up to New York with me at the time and she was living in Washington. So when I would come down I would go over to the White House and contact him, I guess about every month or so, something like that. I mentioned to a man this morning, that that was when President Truman, Cousin Harry, mentioned the fact that he had offered support to Eisenhower to run for President, for the Democratic Party. Eisenhower turned him down. He also showed me the letter that he had written to Eisenhower. He had written that certain things would have to happen about his driver friend, or he was going to kick him [General Eisenhower] out. You probably have a letter here.

JOHNSON: He did make an issue of that [of the relationship

[77]

between General Eisenhower and Kay Summersby].

TRUMAN: Yes, he did, very definitely. He told me about that.

JOHNSON: This was before the '48 campaign. In other words, was Harry Truman not expecting to run in '48? Was he actually offering to support General Eisenhower as a Democratic candidate in '48?

TRUMAN: I'm pretty sure of that."

This discounts claims that Truman "misremembered " in the 1961-62 oral histories with Merle Miller and was thinking about a letter Ike wrote requesting Mamie be allowed to join him in England in 1945.Edison 21:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Merle Miller's oral biography of Truman is too rife with historical inaccuracies to be taken seriously.97.73.64.151 (talk) 12:46, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

yes and if you read General Truman's memoir several times he tells the interviewer he is confused and mixed up on dates. Rjensen (talk) 13:07, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

General Omar Bradley confirmed affair

General Omar Bradley was quoted in an Orange County (CA) Register article many years ago (perhaps 1995) that Eisenhower engaged in a wartime romance with Kay and that her book was accurate.

An undocumented article quoting Bradley fourteen years after his death is hardly convincing evidence.97.73.64.144 (talk) 01:45, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

The KSM article on Wikipedia has become less biased on the subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.81.124.61 (talk) 20:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Why do people find it so surprising that a lonely man, thousands of miles away from his wife, could find companionship with an attractive woman who is next to him, day-in and day-out ? Get real. This is the real world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.234.14.216 (talk) 15:02, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Eisenhower's closest associates say it didn't happen. Next question?97.73.64.144 (talk) 01:45, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

By the way, a lot of men go thousands of miles away from their wives and still manage to remain faithful to them. It's not as unusual as you might think. Maybe YOU need to "get real".97.73.64.151 (talk) 12:42, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Photo

Article has no photo.This site: [[1]] has a photo of this Eisenhower's mistress.Agre22 (talk) 15:43, 29 September 2008 (UTC)agre22

 Done -- Article now has a photo of her in her military uniform. The picture is good. -- AstroU (talk) 12:26, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Use of Marshall letter in 1952 election?

User Rjensen removed from the article Jean Edward Smith's claim that the White House "let it be known that if McCarthy attacked Stevenson ..., they would leak General Marshall's 1945 letter to Eisenhower harshly critical of Ike's plans to divorce Mamie and marry Kay Summersby," apparently for the reason that Truman claimed the letter had been destroyed. That allegation of Truman's merits mention, but I don't see how it merits deleting Smith's claim from the article: if Smith is wrong, cite to a refuting source, but obviously Truman could've been mistaken, there could be a copy of the letter, etc. --Tbanderson (talk) 23:14, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Gossip. the biggest problem--which Smith seems unaware--is that historians have actually listened to the Truman tapes to check the Miller story and Truman never mentioned any such letter nor Summersby nor anyone like her. Ferrell--a leading expert on Truman and Eisenhower--concludes Miller made it up. There is no claim that ever Truman mentioned it to anyone else. But if Truman never said it then who did? There was indeed Washington gossip--the same gossip that the Democratic party campaign officials used in 1952 to ward off McCarthy making allegations about Stevenson. Washington is full of wild gossip about the sex life of generals--then and in November 2012--check today's paper for the latest. Rjensen (talk) 00:03, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I have not read (yet) Smith's book but have read reviews of it. I would like for one who has the book by Smith to cite the pages. Just because an editor wrote Smith cites those events as examples doesn't mean they don't have to be cited and Rjensen could challenge the entry for that alone. What is needed is the proper CONTEXT and timing of both the claim (the letter) and the counter-claim (first, that the statement was not made and second, when was the alleged letter destroyed). Then one can make a better decision as to the matter. Further, I would like to know what Smith is basing the "letter" claim on. It sounds, in the end thus far, like a difference of opinions of historians but I will wait for a reply as to my queries. Do remember we are NOT to add our opinions (WP:OR) but must base what we write on RS sources; whether we like it or not. Kierzek (talk) 02:20, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Smith agonizes over the letter. (see his book p 546 footnote). He uses Merle Miller's book (but does not mention that Ferrell has shown Truman's statement is not on Miller's tapes and Ferrell thinks Miller made it up); an anecdote told by one professor (Mattingly) to another in the early 1950s, and relayed to Smith in about 2010 (by a retired professor age 90 who was trying to remember the details of a conversation he had 60 years before); the 1952 campaign gossip. The 1952 gossip contradicts Truman-Miller account (which says he destroyed the letter. but in 1952 Democratic party officials knew about the letter?? who told them?) Other historians treat the 1952 gossip on a par with the gossip about Adlai being gay. In a presidential campaign you get wild gossip that lots of people believe (Obama was born in Kenya, for example, and has a fake birth certificate). My guess is that Miller heard about the 1952 gossip and then claimed falsely that Truman said it to him in his interview. We know Truman did not say it to Miller (says farrell); and no one has ever suggested that Truman told anyone else. No such letter is in the Eisenhower papers nor in Marshall's papers. It is the only "missing" letter.) I think we have all the ingredients of unsourced gossip. On the other hand Smith really runs with the story--the index of his book (p 943) shows scores of pages that mention Summersby. It's Smith failure to note Ferrell's critique that I think makes his conclusion flawed. Ambrose and the other Ike and Marshall biographers feel there was no such Ike-Marshall exchange re divorce. We DO have a letter from Ike to Marshall asking permission to bring Mamie to Europe; and Marshall refused. Summersby in her memoirs vol 1 does not hint at a sexual relationship; her vol 2 does mention one but the text was ghost written after she died and Smith does not rely on it. Rjensen (talk) 03:31, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I, with others have had to work through this before in certain articles; it can be somewhat hard to sort out the personal "claims" made; take Lincoln, JFK, MLK Jr., LBJ, FDR, for example. There is fact, appearance of fact, rumor or "gossip", as you say. How Miller got the info. may be as you state but that has WP:OR problems. The fact Summersby did not mention it in the 1948 book is not surprising, given Ike was alive and given the times it was written. I believe it all needs to be laid out in context for the readers; with rebuttal (or strong footnotes). I would put in there what Miller states, followed strongly by what Farrell states he found and then write what Smith states; which should be cited; then when Smith notes the letter again (as the article is written), I would point out that Smith does not note Ferrell's critique in his footnotes as to the matter. That is my thoughts at this point; I welcome comments in reply. Kierzek (talk) 18:13, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Michael Korda is an interesting case. He wrote a well received biography of Ike, * Ike: An American Hero (2008). He thinks the issue of an affair cannot be decided one way or the other. Korda is a publisher-- he published Summersby's 2nd book Past Forgetting (the one she confesses to sex with Ike), and interviewed her about it. He does not believe her book (she died before it was drafted and a second ghost writer did the actual writing.) As for the so-called Marshall letter, Sommersby says she knew nothing about it--Ike never talked to her about divorce or marriage. That makes it hard for me to believe that when the war was over Ike asked Marshall's "permission" to get a divorce. Truman's account of Marchall's letter is so outlandish that Smith concludes Truman misread it or lied about it to Miller. (Truman made a "down-home Missouri embellishment" says Smith p 441 ) Rjensen (talk) 18:31, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, for further info. as to Smith and the "letter"; that means that as to that part, Smith basically doesn't believe Truman's statement was correct, either. So, I would therefore agree with your recent edit; btw-most "memoirs" are either ghost written or co-written with a professional writer (whether noted or not), and when people are recalling events things cannot always be said to be 100% accurate, as you know; even if it is as to the person the matter is about. However, the real issue presented is the "letter" and your revert which Tbanderson had questioned. I now can agree with your action. Kierzek (talk) 19:43, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

a) if Miller made up the story about Truman (says Ferrell) then the divorce issue vanishes and you are left with zip. b). Suppose Truman did say it when the tape recorder was off. Miller, Plain Speaking p 368-9, quotes Truman as saying of the letter Marshall supposedly wrote Ike regarding a divorce: he [Marshall] said that if Ike "even came close to doing such a thing, he'd not only bust him out of the Army, he'd see to it that he never for the rest of his life would be able to draw a peaceful breath. He said it wouldn't matter if he was in the Army or wasn't. Or even what country he was in. Marshall said that if he ever again even mentioned a thing like that, he'd see to it that the rest of his life was a living hell." Smith says that Truman exaggerated. Ike and Marshall had a very high regard for one another and Marshall never talked like that to anyone else. By the way, the NY Times today notes that adultery in the military is NOT a crime and is an issue only when “the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces.” Divorce was quite legal and accepted in the army in 1945; Douglas MacArthur was divorced in 1929 and in 1930 was named Army Chief of Staff, and given 4 stars. The idea that Marshall would disgrace his top general--after the war had ended-- for a divorce is ridiculous, and Smith should have pointed that out. Once you reject Truman's paraphrase of the Marshall letter as false, proof of the existence of the "letter" vanishes and you are left with zip. I think Truman never saw any letter and was repeating 1952 campaign gossip. Rjensen (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

reading Merle Miller's account: Truman never says that he read Marshall's letter to Ike, nor that he ever talked to Marshall about it. So who told Truman if only Ike and Marshall knew about it??? this strongly suggests that Truman never saw the letter, and was repeating to Miller rumors that were rife in 1952 about a feud between Ike and Marshall. (note that there also were rumors in 1952 about how Ike betrayed Marshall by not defending him against attacks by McCarthy). Rjensen (talk) 21:43, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

'Confession'

Summersby reportedly stated in 1976: "The General is dead. I am dying..." As she died in January 1975, this is obviously wrong. Perhaps she was quoted in the ghost-written version of her memoirs, but these are believed to have been largely sensationalised. 109.154.9.232 (talk) 10:37, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I fixed the year problem in the text. As for the content of her latter memoirs, that is open to conjecture. Kierzek (talk) 13:00, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Wot, No Yeggs?

　 If Summersby didn't work for MI6, somebody ought to be taken out and shot.　 　 ～～～～ — Preceding unsigned comment added by David Lloyd-Jones (talk • contribs) 03:00, 11 August 2015 (UTC) Would think that the Brits kept a close eye on Ike. Perfect situation, older man, younger beautiful women so close together in war time. They wanted to know what was going on in his head. We all know that everyone spies on their friends as well as their enemies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.29.44.186 (talk) 00:12, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Article is biased

Wikipedia's history re Summersby is checkered. The Eisenhower article first disparaged then later admitted her existence. Now there is no mention of her there--demoted to a link at the bottom of the page.

The present article spends 5 paragraphs deriding her second book. But the last sentence admits General Bradley--who was there when the relationship occurred--said the book was accurate.

Andy Rooney, then a reporter for Stars and Stripes, said: "She was a wonderfully attractive, bright, beautiful woman. I never faulted Eisenhower for whatever happened between him and Kay Summersby. I think he loved his wife, Mamie, and like the old joke goes, What's the difference between British and American women? Well, none, but she was there."

According to David McCullough, speaking on the same program as Rooney, Mrs. Eisenhower believed there was an affair. Eisenhower calling his wife "Kay" at one point did not help things, as McCullough narrates.

A writer who I cannot now find has even written Summersby might as well have been planted by British intelligence, so profound was her influence in promoting Eisenhower's cooperation and respect with the British. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:3E0B:BA00:F9C8:D71B:2CA7:9E81 (talk) 19:16, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

people who saw the two of them day in and day out in informal settings are unanimous there was no sex. Bradley had a separate HQ and saw Ike on formal occasions. The claim was made after her death by a ghost writer who never met Ike. Rjensen (talk) 20:12, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Bradley was one of the few who visited Telegraph Cottage, where Ike, Kay Summersby and not many others stayed. It was not a big house.

http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/485695.JUNE_SAMPSON_FEATURE__Our_part_in_saving_the_free_world___60_years_on/

https://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=25145

Ike's office staff at SHAEF wouldn't have a clue what went on, obviously. Summersby herself said it was a matter of confidences and 'stolen kisses' rather than what a divorce lawyer might recognise as 'sex'. And the article is deeply, puritanically and absurdly submerged in a certain river in Egypt. Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:41, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Becoming a US citizen, and life after the war

The article says that with Eisenhower's help, she "became a US citizen". Why did she want to become a US citizen? The article says that "married the Wall Street stockbroker Reginald H. Morgan in 1952". Being an obviously highly capable woman, what did she do between 1947 and 1952? For that matter, what did she do with herself after divorcing Morgan in the early '50s and before dying of cancer in 1975? And while she was married to Morgan? How long was she married to Morgan? Why did they divorce? —BarrelProof (talk) 04:20, 13 October 2016 (UTC):

Why do you think that belongs in a biographical sketch ? Piffle tosh ! All we care about is did she do the dirty with Ike ? :) 203.160.71.143 (talk) 13:32, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

I have added the date of her divorce from Summersby, published in her wedding announcement to Morgan. The question was raised of "why" the divorce; this is not knowable, as it requires reading the minds of the married couple. (The question of the stated reason in the divorce papers is knowable, but unless Eisenhower is named as a co-respondent, which he is not, it seems utterly irrelevant.)

Kay was Morgan's third wife (his first died; his second had been divorced from the actor George Macready). Their divorce was finalized in Marion County, Alabama, in March 1958. He married for a fourth time in 1959 and built a home in St. Lucia, where he wintered. I agree that it could be useful to include more about her postwar life.