Talk:Full English breakfast

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The bacon is traditionally fried and the eggs are served "sunny side up". The American custom of asking "how would you like your eggs?" is relatively uncommon in Britain, but poached or scrambled eggs and perhaps grilled bacon may be offered as alternatives.

I'm changing the above because it assumes the reader is Usian. How many other countries use the phrase "sunny side up"? I've made a link further up to fried egg, so we can mention the various ways of frying eggs there. -- Tarquin 15:27 Feb 10, 2003 (UTC)

Fair enough, I'm usually the first one to say "Don't assume an American audience", but I thought I'd make it clear that most of the time your eggs come "sunny side up" and there's no argument (particularly in cafe or in someone's home). Mintguy

Yup, but non-US audiences don't know what "sunny side up" means. We need some way of explaining how they are cooked that doesn't use that expression -- Tarquin

Wouldn't you say that a "continental breakfast" usually includes toast rather than croissants? --KF 15:30 Feb 10, 2003 (UTC)

I originally had "oast and or crossants" but didn't like the phrase. In my experience hotels usually offer croissants these days. Mintguy

Just for info, in Italy the "continental breakfast" usually includes a horrible sort of dried spongecake, with no option for toast or croissants. -- Chris Q 15:53 Feb 10, 2003 (UTC)

Duplicate information at Irish breakfast needs to be incorporated into this entry. The traditional Irish breakfast, usually consists of pork sausages (fried), bacon rashers (fried), egg(s) (also fried) and black & white pudding (fried). (Blood sausage).

This breakfast is usually eaten with toast and tea. Other items can be included, such as hash browns (fried chopped potato cakes), mushrooms (fried), fried tomato. Essentially if you can fry it - it's a candidate!

The Irish breakfast is distinguished from the English breakfast by its inclusion of puddings, and omission of baked beans. Breakfasts with these ingredients are however, common in both countries.

The traditional Ulster fry is a further distinction from an Irish breakfast. It will always include potato farls (potato bread) and fried soda farls (flat bread with baking soda not yeast). Generally puddings are not as common, but mushrooms and tomatoes possibly more so.

Any self-respecting Irish hotel is guaranteed to serve an Irish breakfast fit for a king. For a hefty sum, one can also procure a fine culinary delight aboard many trains in Ireland.

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Full English breakfast is not an appropriate place for Irish breakfast entry. But possibly merging the two under traditional fry-up will work.

Zoney 23:21, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Full English breakfast is what appears on menus throughout the world. Common usage. Jooler

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English breakfast is not a particularly neutral title, especially considering that Irish breakfast is quite well known also. Throughout the world are Irish pubs, Irish food outlets and Irish people.

Traditional fry-up fits both.

Zoney 23:54, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Surely though, a fry-up is any fried meal? If I cooked a big plate of chips and eggs, I could call that a fry-up. I feel a bit like we're creating a term which doesn't exist here. Couldn't they eaqch have their own articles which link to each other for the sake of completeness? fabiform | talk 00:03, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

There were originally two articles! An Irish breakfast is a seperate entity altogether! Zoney 00:19, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Calling an English breafast an Irish breakfast is like calling French fries Belgian fries. Irish breakfasts were already diiscussed under English breafast. Jooler

One sentence in an article about kippers and kidneys and beans and what-have-you. An Irish breakfast is not the same thing at all at all.Zoney 00:19, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

If I had bacon sausage and egg with a cup of tea in Ireland, would you call it an Irrish breakfast? I would say you would. So expand on the details of what you might expect in Ireland that are unexpected elsewhere. Personally I don't think baked beans belong in an English breakfast. Jooler

Irish Breakfast

I've been to Ireland (as well as england) And I've had breakfast. Irish breakfast involves at least 5 types of pork, as well as generally an egg, and a scrap of toast. How they can live past the age of 40 is beyond me, maybe it's the guiness. ;) Sam Spade 03:18, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

P.s. Irish breakfast contains no kippers, the Irish despise fish. Sam Spade 03:21, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

the Irish despise fish - idiot. Have you never heard of Guinness and Oysters, or Irish Smoked Salmon? You think the Irish don't eat fish and chips? Or indeed kippers? Jooler

Shut up and drink.

P.s. Sign your posts, you rascal Sam Spade 02:47, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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Dammit 'Joolers' I am not trying to usurp the term 'English breakfast'. Keep it. Just don't claim that an Irish breakfast falls solely under that category. It SURE doesn't in Ireland, and is as much a tradition as Guinness. READ the article to see how it differs. Most of English breakfast article is IRRELEVANT to an Irish breakfast. Yeah, the pork produce is about the only common thing, and even that differs in the 'mandatory' items in both countries. I am not trying to CLAIM Irish breakfast is the commonly served fried breakfast around the world! I'm simply writing about an important part of Irish culture, one that despite your protests IS well known! Zoney 22:33, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

And chips are important to both British and Irish culture, but we have an article and French fries. What's the difference? Jooler 14:36, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The difference is that chips and french fries are mostly just 'names' and both are used either side of the Atlantic. Zoney

Exactly the same for this breakfast. Chips differ from french fries because they are thicker and cooked slightly different. Irish breakfast has soda bread and that's it. Everything else is optional and can be found in both breakfasts, even baked beans as that link I put up showed. Jooler

There needs to be seperate articles, just like their needed to be seperate nations, anyone with a lick of sense knows that. ;) Sam Spade 02:47, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

There are not enough differences to distinguish these two items. The only problem Zoney has is that he doesn't like the word 'English' in the title, that's why he was prepared to have one article which didn't have the word 'English' in it. But we have a policy of common usage, and english breakfast is by far the most common term. If you disagree then you should create a detailed page on Welsh and Scottish and Cornish breakfasts. Jooler

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(Copied from VfD)

Maybe the breakfast is as important as chips are to the British and Irish. But on Wikipedia chips are under french fries. You think breakfast rolls are only served in Ireland? You say baked beans are not part of an Irish breakfast, but this guy (http://www.littleireland.ie/damians/BreakfastMenu.htm, and many others) seems to think different. Jooler

Note that the article did not mention breakfast rolls are being solely Irish (constrasting to the previous version of English breakfast) They are merely included as a social commentary on Ireland!

The exact composition of an Irish breakfast is something for contributors (presumably Irish or have eaten a true Irish breakfast) to come to a consensus to by editing.

Zoney 10:40, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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Perhaps the protagonist would like to show good manners by SIGNING their comments, here and on VfD (which is not where the discussion should be!) Zoney

Done.

Manners

Sam Spade, if you are SURE the others are taking your personal remarks as light-hearted humor, go ahead. But be careful: sarcasm and humor can easily be misunderstood even with smileys :-O --Uncle Ed 20:51, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

My apologies to you sir, I might have forgotten me manners, perhaps the lateness of the day, and the emptiness of me stomach... a good Irish breakfast in the mornin' 'ill have me right as rain! A good day to you until then sir. 8-D+ Sam Spade 05:03, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The Full English as 'Mythic'

I've edited the entry to remove the 'does it really exist' emphasis. It certainly does and I have tried to put it in a more correct and a more contempory social context.

I agree that the page should be renamed "Traditional 'fry-up'". To anybody who is familiar with common parlence, a 'fry-up' is never just going to be food: fried, as the connotations are unequivocally aligned with a specific type of breakfast fare. Importantly, the definition of a fry-up subsumes the definition of a full-english, which, as the article states, requires a fair number of ingredients. So, a fry-up may be a full English, but mostly on cafe menus and when people at home are feeling particularly idulgent. As a breakfast, the term 'fry-up' has a far more concrete meaning to far more regular people eating at home than 'full english' does. And what people use at home carries more significance than what is sold in restaurants. No English person uses 'full English' more than 'fry-up', which makes it as bizarre as the term 'French Toast' to a Frenchman.

The article could continue to differentiate between Irish, Welsh, Scotish and English fry-ups. Jamescole1980

• In my part of England, the term 'fry up' means Bubble and squeak 80.229.14.246 19:57, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Gourmet Tips" section

Although I like the Gourmet Tips section, it really is proscriptive, and doesn't belong in Wikipedia. Can someone take a crack at revising it (for example, sourcing the advice?")

I've removed the 'Gourmet Tips' section. Most of the 'tips' are both proscriptive and fairly obvious notions. The best place for these might be in the Wikibooks Cookbook, if anyone has created an entry there for the full English, but if anyone considers the tips important, some of them might be placed individually throughout the article if written more formally.

Hash browns

...aren't English, but a relatively recent American import. I'd give baked beans a place in it, but not hash browns.

--MacRusgail 19:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

p.s. the Celtic countries aren't English, or maybe the article writer wasn't aware of that.

I've recently read that Hash browns were actually an American copy of a Scotish tradition.. I don't know how much truth there is behind that, though... Helzagood 16:39, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

That's possible, but I don't recall coming across them much in the UK, except as an exoticism, pre-1980s. --MacRusgail 18:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Bubble

A recent contributor keeps persisting in making out that bubble 'n squeak is not a southern thing, (I presume that they mean just northern). But it's been a southern breakfast staple ever since I was a kid, both inside and outside London. And I've never known know a caf in London that does not offer bubble - that's London bubble in my pic, right there. Just though I'd try and alert people to these gratuitous changes, should they recur. Tarquin Binary 22:30, 2 February 2006 (UTC) Far from saying it is not a southern thing, I am saying it is no longer present in southern breakfasts. I have lived on the south coast all of my life, and have never known any cafe, restaurant or person to have bubble and squeak with a breakfast, except in london and in the north. The only time we have bubble, is around christmas, to use up leftovers. Helzagood 02:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC) Recently edit - compromise? Helzagood 02:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Still unconvinced. But you did originally say 'the north'. London is in the south. Compromise on south coast if it makes you happy (though I am therefrom originally too, and remember bubble in cafs), whatever, I feel a bit silly getting steamed over a minor point really. Tarquin Binary 15:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Lol. it is a bit silly really - all this over such a little thing! Helzagood 16:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

That's WP for you, more common than not. I'm usually calmer about trivia, but had a bad week. Hey, but it's Friday now, yippee... Tarquin Binary 17:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Soldiers

Soldiers eat a full english breakfast when they aren't opperational (sometimes they do when they're operational to). Infact the bigger than usual breakfast is how they eat about 3000-3500 calories a day to keep up with their hard physical regieme. The other meals remain similar in size, only breakfast is made bigger by eating a full english.

Beverages

"Whether the fry-up is accompanied by orange juice and usually an abundant supply of tea or coffee". Coffee? COFFEE? The notion that a fry can be enjoyed with anything other than a fine cup of tea is completely barbaric :-) Bedesboy 18:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I beg to differ. When being applied medicinally as a hangover cure, the required accompaniment is strong black coffee, to enhance the anti-hangover effect :-) -- AJR | Talk 16:21, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

More differing...tea comes in large volumes, sorts out the dehydration and introduces the caffeine gradually without irritating an already upset stomach.

Generally I find a very large Bloody Mary to start followed by Kippers, poached eggs and tea, followed by a Gin and Tonic is the best Hangover cure I've found to date. It always helps when you add rum to your tea :) Brendandh 21:09, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm? a bit of blatant Anglocentrism

Further to the Irish chat above- It is not particularly correct to redirect to this article from Scottish breakfast. Bacon originated in Italy or Spain, and fried eggs are multicultural. I have yet to hear of anywhere south of Carlisle/Berwick that one can experience the pleasures of Square sausage, Fried Dumpling, Red pudding and all the rest of the greasy scenario north of the Tweed. This will be rectified at some point soon, unless there are any objections? Brendandh 18:42, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Origin

Do we have a reference to support that this type of breakfast originated in England? It sound dubious (at the very least) to me. The claim was inserted by an editor opposed to merging the English and Irish breakfast articles into one article using a common title (at time of writing this was Full breakfast). I suspect it was a POV edit to lend weight to merging the two under the title of "English breakfast", as the editor in question wants. Maybe I'm wrong.(Edit: actually it appear to be quite old, I just hadn't paid attention to it before.) Is there evidience for the claim? --sony-youth^talk 07:39, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that it wasn't? MarkThomas 07:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Ummmm ... so that's a "no", then? --sony-youth^talk 07:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you are asking for a citation on ridiculous grounds. Clearly the "English" breakfast is "English". Where else could it be from - Lithuania? Why should the onus to prove something so obvious be on the obvious rather than the negative? Logic suggests that if you have a problem with it, you should prove it originates somewhere else. MarkThomas 08:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

See the references I just added. The same meal is known as "Irish breakfast", "Scottish breakfast" and "Welsh breakfast". Suffice it to say that it originated somewhere somewhere, but basing a claim of origin solely on a local name for a dish that is known by local names is dubious. --sony-youth^talk 08:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Surely the point is that the Irish breakfast originates in Ireland, the Scottish in Scotland and so on. What on earth makes you think they are the same thing? RV. Also, did you do a 4RR on the dubious tag? MarkThomas 08:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

What on earth makes me think they are the same thing? Because reputable chefs and cooks say that they are:

"The great English breakfast (any combination of fried bacon, eggs, sausages, tomatoes, bread, black pudding, baked beans, grilled kidneys and kedgeree) ..."[1]

"A full Scottish breakfast is made up of egg, black pudding, lorne slice which a kind of flat sausage, Ayrshire bacon and sometimes potato ..."[2]

"A Full Irish Breakfast (very similar an English breakfast) consists of bacon rashers, eggs, sausages, baked tomatoes, mushrooms, white pudding, black pudding, fresh fruit, toast or scones with butter and marmalade. In Northern Ireland (still part of the UK) they add fried potatoes or Potato Farl to it and call it an 'Ulster Fry'."[3]

Note the references to and Irish breakfast being "very similar an English breakfast". How, if you want to make an Ulster Fry, you simple "add fried potatoes or Potato Farl to it and call it an 'Ulster Fry'." See how an English breakfast is "any combination of" the ingredients to a Scottish breakfast. etc. etc. etc. Why don't you try a flickr search for picture of the dish by its varying names and see if what is called a "Scottish breakfast" in Scotland, an "English breakfast", an "Irish breakfast" in Ireland or a "Welsh breakfast" in Wales.

As for 'origin', currently the earlest refernce I have is for 1898 as a "Scotch breakfast."

Regarding the 3RR (4RR). Hardly, see the edit history. My first "revert" was when you removed the tag because there was no post here specifically about questing it (pedantic, really Mark). The second was when you did not give me enough chance to make a specific post here before you removed the tag again. And the third was when I warned TarkunColl about removing the tag without discussing it as another editor had warned him earlier. --sony-youth^talk 09:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

They all sound very, very different to my untrained ear. I believe these are unique and separate ethnic breakfasts within the overall framework of the islands formerly known as the British Isles. MarkThomas 09:12, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

In that case let me paraphrase for the benefit of your ear: "English breakfast ... bacon, eggs, sausages, ... black pudding ... Scottish breakfast ... egg, black pudding, ... sausage, ... bacon ... Irish Breakfast ... bacon ... eggs ... sausages, black pudding ... In Northern Ireland they ... call it an 'Ulster fry'." --sony-youth^talk 09:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe in each case you will find that they are using Irish bacon, Scottish eggs and so forth. Also, probably the arrangement of overcooked items on the plate is subtly different as between nations and "contiguously defined non-statutory national zones of a primarily ethnic character" (I kid you not - that is how one EU agency defines the countries of "Britain"!), not to mention the oils used. In Scotland for example, Mars bars are generally added. MarkThomas 10:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

"contiguously defined non-statutory national zones of a primarily ethnic character" - !? Thank goodness I don't live in one of those. Sounds like they should be under a UN mandate. Yes, the order does seem to have some consequence. The English breakfast would appear to be "bacon, eggs, sausages, black pudding", whereas a Scottish preference is for "egg, black pudding, sausage, bacon." The Irish recipe, while to the eye looks deceptively like the English one, in fact uses rashers, which, I will have you know, is a wholly different food stuff to mere bacon. Follow any of the above recipe, but making sure to add some fried animal feed and voila! ... you've got an Ulster fry! --sony-youth^talk 11:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

No you don't have an Ulster Fry, you still need Soda Bread and Potato Bread to have an Ulster Fry. Not the same. Oh and the full English breakfast can use both streaky (rashers) bacon or back (more common). Ben W Bell talk 12:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

<reduce indent>Only joking about the Ulster fry! Christ, I learnt my lesson last night! Never called streaky bacon rashers, except possibly in reference "those the horrible skinny rashers", always thought of a "real rasher" as back bacon - but warring over what consitites a rasher would really would be going that bit too far.

Anyway, local perferences for various cuts of bacon and types of bread aside, my point is that these are essentially the same thing (as breakfasts go). Essential ingredients: shallow fry sliced bacon, egg, sausages, and black pudding. Served with bread of some kind or another and, sticking my head out here, a good mug of tea (some orgage juice would be nice too). Probably a generous dollop of baked beans and various local perferences for potato-based cakes, white pudding, fried tomatoes etc. Drop on a dollop of tomato ketchup or Yorkshire Relish (preferably referred to as red and brown sauce repectively) and bang! you've got the breakfast we're all talking about here.

This is a unique and notable morning meal, one which we can all be proud of. We won't decide on a name. We don't have to. We all call it a FULL breakfast. --sony-youth^talk 12:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Merge

I made a merge of the Irish breakfast and the Full English breakfast pages at Full breakfast. Is it okay to blank the Full English breakfast and Irish breakfast pages and redirect them (and Scottish breakfast and Welsh breakfast) there? I included references to Ulster fry in the merged article but as discussed that page will not be merged. --sony-youth^talk 21:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)