Talk:German camps in occupied Poland during World War II

[Note]

The following passage is printed twice in a row in the introduction. Please delete one copy: "The camp system was one of the key instruments of terror, while at the same time providing necessary labour for the German war economy." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:100E:B051:4C7B:D816:89C1:8ED7:F0CE (talk) 22:23, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Untitled

I have written a new article so all this old talk can be archived. Adam 09:42, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Good page, balanced and objective. So here you have some support from a somebody with Polish roots! Pkmink 09:57, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate that. Perhaps you can try to persuade the other Polish Wikipedians of this. Adam 10:00, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No, I won't do that..too much fuss..waste of time if they happen to be the extreme-right version of nationalist. Pkmink 10:06, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The name of this article would seem to encompass POW camps as well, so they ought to be included as an additional category. --Zero 12:04, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't believe the Germans would have fed and housed 400,000 Polish POWs for five years while enslaving the rest of the country. From what I have seen so far, after 1941 they stopped treating Poles as POWs, except possibly officers, and packed them off to labour camps. They stopped giving lists of Polish POWs to the ICRC in 1940. I don't think there were distinctly POW camps after 1941. Adam 12:21, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The title is "Camps in Poland" not "Camps for Poles", so it includes camps used for Russian POWs and others. Strictly speaking, the title also includes Russian camps used to keep Germans and Poles as well, so long as they were in Poland at some stage of WW2. --Zero 13:31, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm not aware that there were POW camps for anyone in Poland, although I suppose some of the camps for Allied POWs may have been in areas which the Germans annexed in 1939. There were presumably temporary Soviet camps for German POWs in Poland in 1944-45, but they shipped them off to Siberia fairly quickly. If you have info on these topics feel free to add it - but not just lists of Polish placenamed please. Adam 13:49, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Later: OK, there was a major POW camp (for western Allies POWs) at Thorn (Torun) and another at Lodz, plus a couple of smaller ones at Wolstein north of Lodz and at Schilberg west of Bydgoszcz. I will add some text to that effect. Adam 14:00, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Very large numbers of Russian POWs were held by the Germans in Polish territory and many died there. Maybe they were the largest group except Jews so they deserve a mention. However I don't have names and numbers at my fingertips and don't have time for the research at the moment. --Zero 15:04, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Congrats Adam, you've made a very good encyclopedia entry! That was the whole point of my reversals: one is not supposed to delete information without giving something in exchange. And it was my only POV in this respect, since I am not an expert in the topic, nether of Poland nor of camps. Mikkalai 18:37, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

---

"Poles (defined both as citizens of Poland regardless nationality and Polish nationals of other citizenship)"

What does this mean? How can one be a Polish national of other citizenship? In English a "Polish national" is the same thing as a "Polish citizen." Does "Polish national" in this sentence mean "a person of Polish race / ethnicity / language"? or what? Adam 08:04, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You are right. I am confusing these terms even in my native language. Mikkalai 16:55, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Adam, nice work. Once comment though: Auschwitz certainly, and to a lesser degree Majdanek and Treblinka, were also concentration camps, as we well as extermination camps, whereas Chelmno, Belzec, and Sobibor existed solely for the purposes of extermination. Danny 21:57, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Danny. I think I said something to that effect re Auschwitz. I will add something about the other two. Adam 22:02, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Proposed title change

Current title "Camps in Poland during World War II" is historically incorrect and too ambiguous. Poland, as a country, didn't exist during the WWII - it was: conquered, partitioned, and occupied by Nazi German and Soviet Union. Northern, Western, and South Western pre-WWII territories were incorporated into the Reich, the central part was turned into German-run slave state called General Government, while Eastern parts were, until June 1941, occupied by Soviet Union. Extermination camps: Auschwitz, Chelmno, and Stutthof, etc., were located in territories incorporated into the Reich. Most of the remaining listed camps were located in General Government. Article's title ought to reflect its content and, similarly to List of German WWII POW camps, should be renamed as: "Nazi Camps in Occupied Poland during WWII", or, "Nazi Camps in German-Occupied WWII Poland". --Ttyre 20:21, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree, the title should be changed. Also it links from the “List of Camps for Poles” in that case also camps not situated in Poland should be added as e.g. Ravensbruck. Therefore the title should specify better, what the article refers to. (Good article BTW) --SylwiaS 16:55, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the title change. However, saying that Poland didn't exist is incorrect: unlike legitimate government of France, for example, Polish government never surrendered and Polish government in exile commanded hunderds of thousands of soldiers. And in the very occupied Poland itself there was a Polish Secret State. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 09:08, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There are many individuals and institutions — some of them Polish — that, from ignorance, malice or opportunism, are happy to blacken Poland's reputation. One of the biggest problems is with part of the world press persisting in referring to World War II "Polish death camps." The shortest, clearest, most informative expression should be found to disambiguate this topic once and for all. logologist 14:31, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think the best title is [[Nazi Camps in Occupied Poland during WWII]] and it should be acceptable. Vuvar1 14:40, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

IMO the word "Nazi" makes the word "occupied" and/or "during WWII" unnecessary, so I'm for a shorter title: Nazi camps in Poland (or Nazi camps in occupied Poland, if someone is afraid that someone else may conclude that there were Polish Nazis). mikka (t) 22:35, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I gave the article this name in an attempt to create a politically neutral title. We should not recognise the Nazi-Soviet dismemberment of Poland. The title should be read as referring to "camps within the pre-1939 boundaries of Poland." This would include Auschwitz etc but exclude Ravensbruck, which was in pre-1939 Germany and was not a "camp for Poles," even if Poles were sent there. There was in any case no such thing as a camp exclusively for Poles. I think the name should stay. Adam 23:30, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I know very well that there were no camps exclusively for Poles. That’s why I clicked the link to the List of Concentration Camps for Poles with great interest and then I found this article. I understand that you wanted to create an article for geographical clarification, but still I wouldn’t consider the title politically neutral. While I’d prefer not to recognize the Nazi-Soviet dismemberment of Poland, I can hardly forget it and these camps are one of best memory refreshments. I know that you may think us oversensitive about this, but even Polish government officially asked not to use descriptions like that. Not everyone is an excellent historian and there is more and more people, who don’t read articles carefully and with situations like that one in the USA, where on every three mentions of camps in media one says the camps were in Poland or even Polish, some people start thinking that Nazis were of Polish origin. I know that you don’t think so, but please, consider the title change. --SylwiaS 02:08, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have never heard any suggestion of anyone thinking that the camps were run by Poles. But if you think this is an issue I suppose it could be Camps in Occupied Poland during World War II. Adam 02:22, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for understanding. Unfortunately it is an issue. Please, read this (an example of a request for correctness) http://www.jewishmuseum.org.pl/index.php?page=1011000001 --SylwiaS 03:30, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) Sorry, it doesn’t link to the exact place. Please, click “news” and then “The American Jewish Committee appeals for the historical truth.” --SylwiaS 03:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

IMHO this article is not needed at all. IMO it should simply be merged with German concentration camps and concentration camp or some other article. Halibutt 11:48, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

The article was felt necessary to counter the mass of false and grossly POV material it replaced at various Polish-martyrdom articles such List of Concentration Camps for Poles. I think it contains useful information, such as the important distinction between extermination camps, concentration camps, labour camps and POW camps, which your titles ignore. Adam 12:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, I do remember all of those "Polish martyrdom" articles. Perhaps merging them into one article was a good choice, but still I fail to see the need to duplicate the info that has already been added to:

• German concentration camps
• Nazi concentration camps
• Extermination camp
• Concentration camp
• World War II atrocities in Poland

... and perhaps some more articles. Halibutt 12:48, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Halibutt to eventually incorporate it into existing other articles. But for now renaming would be the easiest and fastest way to deal with this article. How about "Nazi Camps in Occupied Poland"? --Ttyre 22:09, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'd suggest Nazi concentration camps in occupied Poland. As long as there is no redirect, anybody can move the article - just click move next to edit, type in the new name and move at will. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 30 June 2005 14:28 (UTC)

If you READ THE ARTICLE, you would know that they were NOT all "concentration camps." The WHOLE POINT of this article to explain the difference between extermination camps, concentration camps, labour camps and POW camps. THIS NEW TITLE IS WRONG AND MUST BE CHANGED. Adam 30 June 2005 14:56 (UTC)

I have removed the word "concentration" from the title. Adam 3 July 2005 10:30 (UTC)

And I thought that the difference between extermination camps, concentration camps, labour camps and POW camps should be explained in article on The Holocaust, but apparently I was wrong. But if so, then we have a duplicate info... Halibutt July 8, 2005 06:32 (UTC)

Jewish Polish History template

Removed Template:JewishPolishHistory - inmates in the German camps in occupied Poland were not only Jewish (Polish or from the rest of the Europe) but also Slavs (Poles, Russians, etc.), Gypsies, etc. Reference to the History of the Jews in Poland is probably enough. --Ttyre 6 July 2005 13:09 (UTC)

I would have thought that the murder of 90% of Polish Jews in three years was a pretty major event in Polish Jewish history, wouldn't you? Adam 6 July 2005 13:15 (UTC)

No question about that... but "stamping" this with the template would be similar to the Polish communists' (1945-1989) claims re. Auschwitz camp in reverse. I think wiki has enough ways to point readers to other related articles such as: "categories", "see also", internal links, etc. --Ttyre 6 July 2005 14:07 (UTC)

• Ttyre don't be goofy, "Jews" do not "equal" "Polish communists" in this case (poor logic on your part here and insulting too), besides, many pages have more than one template in any case... IZAK 7 July 2005 08:42 (UTC)

No insult intended... Germany's Nazis camps in occupied Poland are part of the history of many nations, ethnic and religious groups. Adding here, if they would exist, similar templates for Germany, Gypsies, Russia, etc. would make this, or any other wiki page, less and less readable. Jews equal Polish communists? I had fought you knew about the "official" history of Auschwitz during the communist era in Poland (mostly Poles died there). Also, I have already made a comment about your template but let me repeat it here. Since the name of this article is "German camps in occupied Poland during World War II" why are you using a term "Holocaust camps"? why not to say Germany's Nazis camps instead? What's the definition of the "Holocaust camps" anyway? are the concentration, labor, and POW camps included in this term? Maybe Adam, a major contributor to this article, should voice his opinion here. --Ttyre 7 July 2005 09:59 (UTC)

• Ttyre: Stop fudging. The majority of Poland's, and Europe's, Jews were murdered in Poland's "camps" (in all their types, especially the death camps), it was almost a total genocide of the Jews and that is why it's called the Holocaust of the Jews by the world. Yes, many Poles died at the hands of the Germans, especially former Polish officers and soldiers, but the general Polish population did not suffer a "holocaust" at all, on the contrary, as long as they did not resist the Nazis, the Polish people were allowed to go on with "life as usual" and in many cases they were more than happy to get rid of the Jews and live in their houses and take over their domains (proof of this is that they refused to hand back Jewish property to some of the previous Jewish owners that survived). It is time that the Polish people stopped pretending to be the "victim" and face up to the truth and facts of history. IZAK 7 July 2005 16:06 (UTC)
  • • Izak - "the Holocaust of the Jews by the world. Yes, many Poles died at the hands of the Germans, especially former Polish officers and soldiers, but the general Polish population did not suffer a "holocaust"
    • about 3 million non-Jewish Poles died in the 2ww - and how many milions of Slavs (20-25 millions??)
    • "It is time that the Polish people stopped pretending to be the "victim" and face up to the truth and facts of history."
    • Yes.. its time for the Jewish people to do the same... --Witkacy 7 July 2005 21:43 (UTC)

Splitters and wreckers

As someone who has put in a lot of work on this article, and who is neither Polish nor German nor Jewish nor a communist, I won't allow petty Polish-Jewish-German-nationalist-zionist-communist-whateverist feuds to wreck it, OK? Constructive edits will be accepted, wrecking edits will be reverted. Adam 8 July 2005 00:29 (UTC)

Arbitrary reverts will be reverted as well. For instance, how come the camps created by Germans for Jews are not part of German-Jewish history, as your edits seem to suggest? Halibutt July 8, 2005 06:36 (UTC)

I would have thought that "German-Jewish history" is the history of German Jews. But I don't care sufficiently to argue the point. My edits were intended to reinstate the "Jewish-Polish history" category, which Witkacy has been busily deleting. I don't mind both categories appearing. Adam 8 July 2005 07:03 (UTC)

need source for strong claim

"None of the death camps lasted more than eighteen months." - I'm not sure this is correct, even taking into consideration the distinction between "concentration camp" and "death camp". I think at least Majdanek was in operation for quite some time. Tagging.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:15, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Comment on File:WW2-Holocaust-Poland.PNG

Received the following comment via OTRS Ticket:2011061410012349. I'm just the messenger.--Chaser (talk) 01:17, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Greetings, regarding the above (and related sites with the same map titled Holocaust)

The image is not "editable" but the these pages and the map should always refer to the S*econd World War and** the Holocaus*t. The genocide happened within the context of the war. By the time the extermination camps were built in late 1941 and 42 (most operational for up to 18 months then blown up) millions died in the concentration camps, forced labor camps, detention camps, and prisons.

For the same reason, the organization of the type of camps should be arranged in the following order:

German designations: *Konzentrationslager, Arbeitslager, Vernichtungslager, Sonderkommando SS, Zwangsarbeitslager, Aufenthaltslagers, Durchgangslager, Transitlager, Schutzhaftlager, Familienlager, Internierungslager* etc.

(the latest estimates are that in the Reich - Germany and occupied Poland /*mostly in the occupied territories*/ there were 12 thousand camps. In occupied Poland there were over 430 major complexes. The 4 death camps "proper" (plus 2

(*W latach 1933 <http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/1933>-45<http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945>władze nazistowskie <http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narodowy_socjalizm> III Rzeszy<http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/III_Rzesza>zorganizowały na własnym terytorium oraz na ziemiach państw okupowanych zespół przynajmniej 12 tysięcy obozów i podobozów kierowanych przez SA<http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung>, a później SS <http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel>, policję<http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policja>i Wehrmacht <http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht>.

problematic article

From its very title, this remains a problematic article.

For starters, I have moved the external link from the SEE ALSO section into an External Link section.

It remains surprising that there was no section for External Links given the topic.

It is troubling that there is no equivalent in any other language - not even a direct translation. Given the use of Kommando groups, open slaughter and secret slaughter, an article on camps might as easily be a list linking to the articles on main camps. Many of those camps already have a list article for their sub-camps.

Even the article on kidnapping of children in the area has at least a Polish equivalent.

"German camps" is an almost laughable term for its utter, innocent vagueness and is a standing invitation to revisionists given the utter illegality of all that transpired being brought under this bland, vague heading. How are you to exclude "German Army camps", "German SS Panzer camps" ? The very term "camp" is inadequate in at least one, very significant case of a complex of institutionalized human slaughter, extermination and incineration.

The second foolishness concerns the term "Occupied" : after Barbarossa, what had been "German-occupied" ceased to describe the area in question. Was it considered to use the terms "Nazi General Government of annexed and occupied Polish territory during WWII" as the GG often directed the construction of facilities? Furthermore, what was then "Poland" at the end of 1941 is not now "Poland" in what concerns the east : after all, we are dealing with boundaries from 1921 - a mere twenty years - and on territory recently both Lithuanian and Ukrainian at that time.

The third is the use of "German" for "Nazi". Fourth: some former territory was annexed, some was "occupied". This is the only wp article with "German camps ..." yet there were installations outside former Polish territory or "territory claimed by the Polish Underground Forces" yet also not the post-WWII "Poland".

Is there a single WP editor in the English language who would contest that these were areas under "Illegal Occupation" - and that they were first and foremost Nazi installations.

Was "Illegal Nazi ..." considered and rejected? To do so is to contribute to the sort of George W. Bush view that there is no international law - a fiction.

The article on Hans Frank uses the expression "occupied Poland's 'General Government' territory".

The article on Krueger uses the expression " in the part of German-occupied Poland called the General Government."

G. Robert Shiplett 00:04, 12 December 2012 (UTC) --Grshiplett (talk • contribs) 10:21, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

If you have any concrete suggestions for improving this article, please make them. Your arguments above deal almost exclusively with the title of the article. Article titles must conform to WP:NPOV as with all other material on Wikipedia. Illegal Nazi camps in occupied Poland during World War II would a blatant violation of this policy. The fact is that Poland was occupied by the German army, not technically by the Nazi party, and why does not including the word "illegal" in the title automatically make the article pro-Nazi? If you have a reliable source that states that the camps were illegal, then you can add the citation "Legal historian Joe Bloggs has maintained in his book Illegal Nazi camps in Occupied Poland during World War II that the camps themselves were criminal in nature" or something to that effect. Is the word "crime" being used in the opening to describe what happened in the camps not enough?

I have noticed you seem to post a lot on talk pages and blow "problems" out of proportion, but you don't seem to consider Wikipedia policies when doing so. I recommend you familiarize yourself with the five pillars as soon as possible.

elvenscout742 (talk) 07:52, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

See Also section revised

The See Also section has been changed to try to bring balance to this article by way of context. No link on Tannenberg is inexcusable. With the Katyn Massacre so long blamed on Gestapo, why would that link not be included.

Should there not also be a link to events in the western areas post-1945 ? History is not about "agreement" any more than it is about viewing a topic in isolation. Without a SEE ALSO for events from 1945 to 1953 in the "new" territory, a great deal of context is lost.

The link to history of Poland should be a replaced by a link to post-WWI Poland as that is the context. There is no link to Lithuania or Western Ukraine or Belorusse which I view as deplorable but would be partially corrected by a link to Poland 1918 - 1921. Or the context is lost on a young reader.

G. Robert Shiplett 00:45, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

"Backbone" of the economy

This quote seems like an extraordinary claim: "During the course of World War II, the camps served as the backbone of German war economy." It's not supported in the body or by a specific citation. Wouldn't German industry have been the backbone of the war economy? If anything, the camp system was underutilized as a source of labor, as millions were simply starved to death or murdered on arrival. Forced labour under German rule during World War II gives a peak number of 20% of the labor force. I think the existing assertion needs some more WP:RS, or more accurate phrasing. Qzd (talk) 22:54, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

• Thanks for noticing. The above statement needs further clarification for sure. But the labour camps varied greatly. Prisoners were used in many different ways including by Deutsche Wirtschaftsbetriebe, Ostindustrie, Organisation Todt but also in actual real factories making Kriegslokomotive, building rockets, and fixing air-planes. Regarding Forced labour under German rule during World War II article, Wikipedia alone is not a WP:RS as you already know. I will look into this, Poeticbent talk

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Waldemar Grabowski

Seems like a reliable historian, through [1] seems like a minor popular science/history/news outlet. But Grabowski has published on similar topics in more academic venues like [2]. I don't think his claims are particularly WP:REDFLAG, fringe or otherwise, to be removed on sight (but I concur with removal of some claims attributed to him that are not in the source, doh, like [3]). That said, I am sure we can find better statistics by senior scholars in reliable sources. Ping User:MyMoloboaccount. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:56, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

The quoted text comes probably from the book below.Xx236 (talk) 09:08, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

The victims

The numbers are still controversial. Methodological problems should be listed, e.g. border changes, lack of documents and demographic data. A cursory census was organised in 1946 and a precise one only in 1950, after massive population transfers. Numbers of victims include Poles killed by Ukrainians and Ukrainians killed by Poles. Probably the most reliable source is Wojciech Materski and Tomasz Szarota, Polska 1939–1945. Straty osobowe i ofiary represji pod dwiema okupacjami (Poland, 1939–1945: Human Losses and Victims of Repression under Two Occupations), Institute of National Remembrance (IPN), Warsaw, 2009, ISBN 978-83-7629-067-6, reprinted in 2019. [4]. Xx236 (talk) 08:58, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Monuments and museums, research, accounts

• I believe that monuments and museums should be mentioned (perhaps a separate page is needed). There is a problem of borders, some camps like Gross-Rosen concentration camp existed in Germany proper or Free City of Danzig.
• Post-war research should be described, eg. KZ-Syndrome. here only Survivor guilt#Holocaust, which isn't exactly the same = Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. http://www.psychiatriapolska.pl/uploads/onlinefirst/Rutkowski_PsychiatrPolOnlineFirstNr21.pdf
• Accounts should be summarised, eg. texts by Tadeusz Borowski and Stanisław Grzesiuk.Xx236 (talk) 09:23, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
• Transfers of prisoners - Many Polish citizens were imprisoned outside Poland and many foreigners were transfered to camps in Poland.
• Prisons - Nazi prisons were sometimes comparable with concentration camps.Xx236 (talk) 09:57, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
• Underground - there existed an organisation in Auschwitz and one in Treblinka (Treblinka prisoner uprising).Xx236 (talk) 10:01, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
• Guards.Xx236 (talk) 10:03, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
• Kapos.Xx236 (talk) 07:17, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

"Organisation Schmelt" listed at Redirects for discussion

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