Talk:Cubana de Aviación

Untitled

Got rid of "under Marxist rule" as neither Castro nor the regime were Marxist immediately after the Revolution. Also rephrased "had to stop" to "stopped". Was a bit POV. Dafyddyoung 10:03, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

28 March 2005 Incident

Does anybody have a source about the incident that allegedly happened on 28 March 2005, where "a Cubana A320 flying between Cuba and Canada lost its tail, but the plane was able to make a safe emergency landing in an American airport"?

On 05 March 2005, Air Transat flight 961 between Varadero, Cuba and Quebec City, Canada had the majority of the rudder surface detach during flight. The aircraft returned to Varadero and landed without incident. The incident aircraft was an Airbus A310. I couldn't find any news reports about this Cubana A320, and this Air Transat incident happened within a relatively close timeframe, involving a flight between Cuba and Canada.

There is some information, including pictures... here and here. --Ncdoyle 15:32, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Cubana de Aviación Ownership

Does aybody know who the owners of Cubana de Aviación are?

The Cuban government are the owners of Cubana de Aviacion.

Accidents of 40 years ago needed?

instead of writting more about the airline history why copy and paste minor accidents that occur 40 years ago. is none sense. Bill. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.8.137.254 (talk • contribs) 22:02, 25 August 2006

While Wikipedia does not aim to be a collection of indiscriminate information, accidents with fatalities or substantial damage to an aircraft are usually considered notable. This is a broad subject in Wikipedia, see for instance Category:Aviation accidents and incidents and subcategories. I would suggest making a special entry with a List of Cubana de Aviación accidents and incidents if the present entry is too long. --Oden 20:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

It is notable that this is the content that was removed from this article:

On 6 October 1976, terrorist sabotage brought down Cubana Flight 455, a Douglas DC-8 departing from Barbados to Cuba. Two bombs were put on by a terrorist organization of a CIA-linked Cuban exile, Luis Posada Carriles, killing all 73 people on board. Among the dead were all the 24 young members of the Fencing team that had just obtained all the gold medals in the Central American and Caribbean Championship.

As everyone reading this is acutely aware, the destruction of this airliner is an unresolved crime http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/09/national/09exile.html and Venezuela has issued repeated requests for the defendant, Luis Posada Carriles, to be sent to Venezuela for trial. That the US has refused to honor that request is fact. That all references to the destruction of this airliner has been removed from this article does not erase history. It only makes this article not credible.Skywriter (talk) 14:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Cubana 75 anniversary logo.jpg

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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 23:28, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Removed paragraph

I removed an unsourced paragraph that accused Americans of sabotaging the airline's success. I think it needs to be rewritten neutrally, fact-checked (or have the sources of viewpoints cited) and sourced before the content can be added back to the article. wctaiwan (talk) 09:56, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

The article is full of unsourced stuff, actually.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 10:44, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but that stood out as a clear example of POV-pushing that's partially true, at best. wctaiwan (talk) 11:11, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Agree. I meant that much more unsourced stuff should be wiped out.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 11:31, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Last edits reverted

I've reverted the last edits made by Samby07 (talk · contribs) over the following concerns:

1. Orders are not usually placed in the infobox;
2. The sources provided (actually, it was the same source duplicated) do not mention that the airline has four An-148 on option. It just say the airline has six aircraft of the type on order, which was already stated in the article, and also properly sourced. Basically, their change failed to comply with WP:VERIFY;
3. Messed fleet table up.

Please use this talk page for future discussions regarding the matter.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 18:11, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

The source provided by the user says the airline has six An-158 on order, so I'll add this info as it was not included in the fleet table. I'm trying to find a better source confirming this. In the meantime, I'll re-add the reference provided by him/her.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 18:23, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

 I've added a reference confirming the airline has six An-158s on order.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 18:45, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Unexplained removal of An-148 order

I've reverted twice ([1], [2]) the unexplained removal of the entry including three An-148s the airline have on order. These edits were made by 190.76.8.160 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). The entry is properly sourced two times in the article: the first time in the ″History″ section, and the second time in the fleet table. I've warned the IP twice regarding the unexplained removal of content. So far, no response has been provided, neither here nor at their talk page.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 22:21, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Skytrax information

It was agreed not to include Skytrax-related information into airline articles, so I've removed this stuff from the lead three times so far ([3], [4], [5]). The edits in question were also unsourced, going against the verifiability policy. If you want to re-add this , please raise the matter at WT:AIRLINE, gain consensus for doing so, and re-add it backed by at least a reliable source.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 12:57, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Archived references not used in the article

• ""Ильюшин Финанс" привлекла $50 млн на покупку трех Ан-158 для Cubana de Aviacion". ITAR-TASS (in Russian). 27 December 2013. Archived from the original on 27 June 2014. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)
• "Cubana de Aviacion получает третий Ан-158". ATO.ru (in Russian). 29 August 2013. Archived from the original on 27 June 2014. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)
• "An-158 gearing up for new orders". Take-off Magazine. Archived from the original on 17 February 2013.
• Kaminski-Morrow, David (22 August 2006). "Russia completes 'hot and high' testing with Cubana Ilyushin Il-96-300 in Ecuador". London: Flightglobal. Archived from the original on 25 June 2013.

--Jetstreamer ^Talk 02:01, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Fleet table reformatting

I updated and reformatted the fleet table per a recent reliable source. The existing information was dated August 2015. I also removed information on seat configurations, as the references were all at least four years old. Further, there is nothing wrong with indicating "at least 15" aircraft in the fleet. Wikipedia's content is based on reliable sources. Unless a different, more specific reliable source (not Planespotters.net or Airfleets.net) can be found, we work with what we have. Being an article on a Cuban airline, this is doubly difficult. — Sunnya343✈ (háblame • my work) 05:19, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Yet I don't think the seat configurations had to be removed, even when they were sourced with dated references.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 13:07, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Cubana de Aviacion accidents and incidents revert Cubana 972

Hello and good day. Today I made a slight change to the data of the above incident. There was 107 pax and 6 crew, not 104 and 9. Go to that page and incident at bottom of page and click on 972, redirects to wiki page. It says 107 pax and 6 crew. Go to Aviation Safety Network site and click about the incident. ASN is very reliable and they update and are current, so if you decide to change it to what I stated, change and use that as a source. Thank you for your time and have a good weekend.2601:581:8500:949C:92F:9B9C:48F8:D168 (talk) 18:17, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

You cannot use another article to source your changes per WP:CIRCULAR: linking to articles is not sourcing. As for the ASN page, it is not used there as a source. Separately, you should have posted your comment at Talk:Cubana de Aviación accidents and incidents, not here..--Jetstreamer ^Talk 21:58, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Updated fleet information

I updated Cubana fleet information to reflect the actual status (added 1 ATR 42-500, 3 18-seat EMB-110 Bandeirante, refined the IL-96-300 seating variants). I also corrected some errors in the fleet table (ATR 72-212 instead of ATR 72-500, changed the number of passenger TU-204-100s to 2 instead of 1, changed the seating of TU-204-100 to 12/164|176 instead of 12/212|224). Most changes were backed up by a reference (textual or photographic).

But the user "Jetstreamer" undid my revision with the comment: "Sources not reliable".

So I'd like to ask which of those sources weren't reliable? Are the photos of the airplanes (on https://www.jetphotos.com) not reliable, or maybe the fleet information on external website (https://www.flightera.net)? Some of my changes I based on references ALREADY EXISTING in the article (e.g. https://havana-live.com/cuban-aviation-buys-two-new-atr-72-600/ for ATR 42-500, ATR 72-200, EMB-110)... If those sources are also not reliable than I would say that any source cited on this article isn't reliable! Especially the fleet information on an obsolete Cubana website...

Even those changes for which I didn't place comments were correct because I have flown on IL-96-300 (CU-T1250) and I've seen the 12/208|220 seat configuration on my own eyes (I have photos of the interior)! I also have screenshots of the seatmaps for IL-96-300 (configurations: 18/244 and 12/208) and TU-204-100 (configuration 12/164) from the Cubana website taken during the booking of my flights. Just how can I prove it? Because even if I created my own website with all these information I couldn't use it as a reference according to Wikipedia citation policies as these are no "reliable sources".

To be honest, there are no reliable sources when it comes to Cuba. Everything is about collecting bits and pieces of information and putting it all together... So I strongly suggest to restore my changes. Otherwise the entire article itself could be called "unreliable" (at least the currently shown fleet information is simply NOT TRUE any more)...

Tomek --5.174.48.238 (talk) 15:56, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Personal experiences do not count as reliable soures. Read WP:VERIFY regarding this. Likewise, images are not reliable sources: I find an image of a Cubana aircraft at any airport of the United States that does not automatically mean the airline serves the US.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 18:19, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

But it does mean that the airiline HAS this aircraft (or at least had it in the past). If the registration is Cuban it means that it's neither chartered nor wet-leased. And if the photo date is close to now it means that the aircraft is still in the posession of the airline. If photos weren't a good evidence than the world would stop turning...
But even the reference already existing in the article (havana-live.com, which I mentioned above) stated that Cubana owns ATR-42, ATR 72-200 and EMB-110 planes which were taken over from Aerogaviota or Aero Caribbean (although the number of the airframes owned looks incorrect compared to the photos). So I see no point in excluding these planes from the fleet list.
Tomek --5.60.10.141 (talk) 18:56, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

The aircraft could be leased and it would wear the Cubana livery anyway. Wet-leased aircraft are not to be included per WP:AIRLINE-FLEET-LIST.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 21:45, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, it's logical that wet-leased planes shouldn't be listed because they are not operated by the main airline. But because Aero Caribbean merged with Cubana in 2015 the airplanes taken over from that airline are certainly not wet-leased. Now they are fully owned by Cubana. You may be right about the ATR 42-500 originally delivered to Aerogaviota (a still existig airline); it might not be a real Cubana airplane, it can only wear its colors. But after the merger, the ATR 72-212 and EMB-110 belong to Cubana for sure.
Tomek --31.2.13.218 (talk) 13:51, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Do you have sources to support what you claim?--Jetstreamer ^Talk 16:54, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, tomorrow I will post the complete results of my research on actual Cubana fleet with bunch of various sources (articles and links to photos) in this thread. I just have to finish gathering all the sources. Later you can decide whether to include them in the main article or not. I'm only a bit cautious about the ATR 42-500 but for the rest I'm pretty much sure. Unfortunately, I don't know where to post my IL-96 and TU-204 economy class seating charts from the Cubana reservation website (maybe I could sent them somehow to your e-mail address?).
Tomek --37.7.243.98 (talk) 20:13, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Sure, you can send them through. If you post here all the info you mention I can ask other editors at WT:AIRLINE to take a look at it if you prefer (before making any changes to the article). You can do it all by yourself if you want to.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 21:22, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Below is the complete Cubana fleet list as of 2019 based on my research (with references).

Owned passenger airplanes:

• 6 AN-158 (seating Y97 ¹); all in previous Cubana livery (CU-T1710, CU-T1711, CU-T1712, CU-T1714, CU-T1715, CU-T1716), all grounded in HAV
• 4 ⁵ IL-96-300; 1 active ² (CU-T1250); variants:

2 (seating C18Y244); 1 in the new Cubana livery (CU-T1251), 1 in previous Cubana livery awaiting an overhaul (CU-T1254) ⁵

1 (seating C12Y208 ⁶); new Cubana livery (CU-T1250), features VIP section in the front cabin ¹³

1 (seating C12Y270 ¹⁴); ex Aeroflot (RA-96008) cabin layout, Aeroflot-Cubana hybrid livery (CU-T1717) ¹⁵, stored at HAV

• 2 TU-204-100 (seating C12Y164 ⁷); 1 stored at HAV (CU-T1701), 1 undergoing an overhaul (CU-T1702), all in previous Cubana livery
• 2 ATR 72-212 (seating N/A); ex Aero Caribbean ^{2, 11}, 1 in the new Cubana livery (CU-T1547) ³, 1 in an interim livery (CU-T1548) ⁴
• 3 EMB-110 Bandeirante (seating Y18 ¹⁶); ex Aero Caribbean/Aerotaxi ¹⁸, all in the new Cubana livery (CU-T1540, CU-T1541, CU-T1551) ⁸, 2 of them active ^{2, 17}

Cargo airplanes:

• 2 TU-204-100CE; CU-T1700 stored at HAV, CU-T1703 possibly stored as well ¹⁰, all in previous Cubana livery

Ordered airplanes:

• 0(2) ATR 72-600 (seating TBA); all in the new Cubana livery (CU-T1720, CU-T1721) ¹⁰, awaiting delivery
• 0(3) IL-96-400 (seating TBA)

Other airplanes (unconfirmed status or not owned by Cubana):

• 2 ATR 72-500 (seating N/A); wet-leased from Solenta Aviation ¹² (to be replaced by ATR 72-600) ², all white livery with Cubana titles (ZS-XZA, ZS-XZB) ^{9, 10}
• 1 ATR 72-212 (seating N/A); ex Aero Caribbean ^{2, 11}, Aero Caribbean livery (CU-T1245), stored at HAV ¹⁰
• 1 ATR 42-300 (seating N/A); ex Aero Caribbean ¹¹, Aero Caribbean livery (CU-T1550) ⁹
• 2 ATR 42-500 (seating N/A); from Aerogaviota ², 1 executive version in previous Cubana livery (CU-T1240) ^{9, 12}

¹   Information about AN-158 entry into service: AN-158 97 seats 1, AN-158 97 seats 2, AN-158 97 seats 3, AN-158 safety card with a seat map, AN-158 project

²   Information about the Cubana ATR 42, ATR 72, EMB-110, Another info about the Cubana fleet

³   Photos of ATR-72-212 CU-T1547, Photo of ATR-72-212 CU-T1547, Photos of ATR-72-212 CU-T1547 test flight
     Paintwork photos: CU-T1547 nose closeup, CU-T1547 1, CU-T1547 2, CU-T1547 3

⁴   Photo of ATR-72-212 CU-T1548

⁵   IL-96 CU-T1254 overhaul

⁶   Information about a 220-seat IL-96, IL-96 12-seat business class of CU-T1250

⁷   TU-204 number of seats

⁸   Photo of EMB-110 CU-T1540, Photo of EMB-110 CU-T1541, Photo of EMB-110 CU-T1551

⁹   Photo of ATR 42-500 CU-T1240, Photo of ATR 42-300 CU-T1550, Photos of ATR 72-500 ZS-XZA

¹⁰   AeroTransport Data Bank: ATR 72-212, ATR 72-500, ATR-72-600, TU-204

¹¹   Aero Caribbean-Cubana merger

¹²   Cubana domestic airplanes, Solenta ATR 72-500 wet-leased

¹³   CU-T1250 vip section (wrong business class seat information)

¹⁴   CU-T1717 information, Last post tells about CU-T1717 being in Aeroflot configuration CU-T1717 economy cabin video, RA-96008 main economy cabin photo, RA96008 main economy cabin photo, RA-96008 business section photo, RA-96008 business and forward economy section photo, IL-96-300 seating plan identical to RA-96008 photos/CU-T1717 video

¹⁵   Photo of IL-96 CU-T1717

¹⁶   Cubana EMB-110 safety card with a see-through setmap

¹⁷   EMB-110 flight status, EMB-110 flight schedule

¹⁸   Previous EMB-110 owners: Aero Caribbean CU-1551, AeroTaxi CU-T1540, AeroTaxi CU-T1541

In my opinion the list is plausible in over 90%. It was a job for Sherlock Holmes to gather all the bits of information and put it together. Especially that there weren't many reliable sources and even those better ones were sometimes misleading and contained mistakes. So I had to verify various sources (articles, trip reports, photos and videos) to become convinced that the information is right.
The planes I'm not sure of are listed in "Other airplanes" section. It refers mainly to the ATR 42-500 which might be wet-leased from Aerogaviota (the Cubana painted CU-1240 might still belong to Aerogaviota and could be used for transporting VIPs).
It's also unclear if the ATR/EMB planes taken over from Aero Caribbean fly under the AOC of Cubana or Aero Caribbean. But because Aero Caribbean doen't exist as a separate airline any more, they should be listed under Cubana, I think.

Yes, you may ask others to double-verify the information.
--TomekTCI (talk) 16:56, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Most of the sources are iffy in wikipedia terms, you cant use photographs as a source or spotter websites like planelogger and planespotters, tracking websites, or blogs. You will need to find some more realible sourcing before adding any of this to the page. MilborneOne (talk) 17:16, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

The problem is, there are no other, more reliable sources regarding Cubana airplanes and their configuration. It's a closed country and they don't publish any useful information officially. Finding those listed was a hard piece of work. So, either we agree on a certain comprimise in selection of sources or the final outcome will be even less reliable. Just as it is now in the main article where the aircraft seat configurations are all wrong, some aircraft (ATR 72-200 and EMB-110) are not listed at all and other airplanes (like the ATR 72-500) are not owned by Cubana at all (if it's that of Solenta Aviation it shouldn't be listed because it is wet-leased)... So, are we going to do something about it???
--TomekTCI (talk) 19:41, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes we clearly can do something but it needs to be based on reliable sources. From what I can see the current fleet is sourced, in the end the seat configuration is a fan boy thing and we could delete it if was wrong although it is sourced? MilborneOne (talk) 19:49, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

It's maybe sourced but now you can see how reliable these sources are if they present wrong figures. Yes, the seat configuration is not the most important information there but it still should reflect the reality. Sometimes it's better to write "N/A", "various" or note that "other configurations exist" (if you don't trust the sources) than show wrong figures (for AN-158 the difference is 2 seats, for IL-96 it's correct for 2 of 4 planes and for TU-204 only business class is right).
You should change at least those for AN-158 and TU-204 becauese the sources I provided are regular, serious articles like in Granma, Opciones and not just photos or fan websites (these articles are even more reliable than the current sources where e.g. the 99 seats information for AN-158 refers to the aircraft in general not the version delivered to Cubana - read the cited article carefully pos. 44).
But leaving ATR 72-500 in the table is a big mistake because Cubana doesn't have such plane. There is also no information about Cubana and Aero Caribbean merger ch-aviation and the resulting takeover of aircraft of the latter. And information about ATR 72-200 and EMB-110 in Cubana service is provided even in the source already accepted in the article (pos. 51) Havana live.
Besides, in the "2000s and onwards" section there is a fragment "A Tu-204 freighter was never delivered to the company due to financing problems.". It's not true because Cubana owns 2 now (they are listed in the table). And under the IL-96-300 image there is a sentence: "At February 2017 the airline operates five aircraft of the type.". Which again isn't true because the fifth IL-96-300 (2nd one from Aeroflot) was never delivered to Cubana despite being ordered. So, it's better to delete these sentences...
--TomekTCI (talk) 13:36, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

I understand your comments, I will have a look at the article and you info later on when I have more time. MilborneOne (talk) 13:56, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

• Ilyushin Il-96 this reference https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2019-02-04/moscow-commits-reviving-cubana-fleet says they have five, but all I could find with a bit of original research is CU-T1250, 1251, 1254 and 1717 (four), strange but the citation in the article to support the four actually says five as well. MilborneOne (talk) 16:16, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

• ATR-72 agree that these are operated by Cubana, original research has eight ATR-72s registered 1509 (stored), 1550 (active), 1512 (stored), 1240 (active), 1544 (stored), 1548 (active), 1545 (stored), 1547 (active), two leased south-african aircraft and two new ATR72-600s on order. Still looking to prove this with reliable sources. MilborneOne (talk) 16:21, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

I found this information from 2015 about the planned acquisition of 5th IL-96 for Cubana (former Aeroflot RA-96011) 5th IL-96. Actually the delivery never happened but I can't find any source about it. But the russian plane list for the RA-96011 shows that it still belongs to Aeroflot and is stored in VASO RA-96011. For the CU-T1717 the same page shows that it belongs to Cubana and also is stored CU-T1717.

About ATR... The registrations you listed are actually:

• ATR 42-300 (CU-T1509, CU-T1550, CU-T1512) all in Aero Caribbean livery (stored)
• ATR 42-500 (CU-T1240) Cubana old livery (ex Aerogaviota or still operated by Aerogaviota)
• ATR 72-212 (CU-T1544, CU-T1545) Aero Caribbean livery (stored)
• ATR 72-212 (CU-T1547) Cubana new livery
• ATR 72-212 (CU-T1548) Cubana interim livery

You may google some photos of those airplanes to confirm that.
--TomekTCI (talk) 13:41, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

In the "Airliner World" magazine (October 2019 issue) there is a Global Airline Guide (part 1) with every airline and its airplanes. For Cubana they listed: "AN-158-200 (6), ATR 42-300 (1), ATR 72-200 (2), Il-96-300 (4), Tu-204-100 (1), Tu-204-100E (2)". For Aerogaviota they listed: "ATR 42-500 (4)". It means that ATR 42-500 in Cubana livery probably still belongs to Aerogaviota, it might be only wet-leased.
The list is close to the reality although I'm not sure if the ATR 42-300 is really in use. Besides, there is ambiguous information for Tu-204 (actually all are Tu-204-100/100E but thre are 2 Tu-204-100E passenger version and 2 Tu-204-100CE cargo version, one of each is active).
--TomekTCI (talk) 11:55, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Ardfern updates airline fleets using the source you mention. I'm pinging them so that they can do the same with this article.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 22:31, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Geographical names

Hi, what does WP:V have to do with what I fixed in Cubana de Aviación and List of KLM destinations? Although it is spelled differently in the cited source, it remains verifiable. These are page titles, so the names are consistent across the wiki and objectively the most understandable. After your revert, in the case of List of KLM destinations, it is not consistent even within that page. The sources you refer to are old and therefore use outdated spelling. The absence of diacritics in the English-language sources is never a reason for its absence in wiki, if the page title uses it. Unless you have a better reason for your revert, I will restore my version. FromCzech (talk) 13:32, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Archived refs not used in the article

• "News scan". Flight International: 5. 11 January 1986. Archived from the original on 22 February 2014. Retrieved 28 August 2012. Cuban flag carrier Cubana de Aviacion has inaugurated a weekly service between Havana and Brussels using a Soviet Ilyushin Il-65M [sic] aircraft. The route was discontinued by Sabena seven years ago.
• "World airline directory – Cubana". Flight International: 65. 20–26 March 1996. Archived from the original on 7 April 2014. Retrieved 15 August 2012.
• "World airline directory – Cubana". Flight International: 66. 25–31 March 1998. Archived from the original on 7 April 2014. Retrieved 15 August 2012.

Sunnya343 (talk) 21:22, 27 March 2024 (UTC)