Talk:Chador

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Could we get a less mime-like image perhaps? Sherurcij 06:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Is there some reason the word Shador redirects here? Is that a common misspelling of this garment or something? I had no idea that my intarweb name had any meaning whatsoever. Shador5529 15:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

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and a long overcoat (jilbab or manteau) became compulsory for total coverage.

The jilbab is worn over the chador? AxelBoldt 22:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, fixed article

No, so far as I know it's either chador or manteau, but not both. Jilbab is associated with Sunni Salafis, not Shi'a. Someone who was confused wrote that.

I added some material about traditional and modern dress for which I could give no references. I should look them up, and perhaps I'll have time later. I don't have any doubt that what I added is true, but it does need refs. Pictures would also be good. For the traditional costume, I can probably find some old Victorian engravings which would be public domain now. Modern pictures ... well, perhaps some Iranians could help. Zora 05:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Chador and manteau are entirely separate things. Women who wear chador do not wear manteau underneath. Chador is worn over regular (supposed to be "modest") clothes. Manteau is for women who don't wear chador. The Chador is also pre-Islamic.

Here is a interesting article about chador: http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0011028.html According to this article it is also worn by some Hindus. Here is another one from BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/highlights/010525_iran.shtml

This article could use an expert. Khorshid 09:06, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, what I wrote should make it clear that some women wear chador and some women wear scarf and manteau. Perhaps you read that too quickly?

As for the claim that only mullahs and religious people objected to the Pahlavi decree -- I don't think that's right. I've read several places that women who were used to the traditional garment were distressed by having to appear improperly clothed in public. I'm not defending the dang chador -- it must be hot as anything -- but I also think that women should be able to wear what they want, whether it's chadors or hot pants.

From what I read was mostly mullahs who made alot of noise. I can see "some" rural and peasant women complaining, but mullahs were definitely the spotlight of the complaints, like when they opposed voting rights for women and letting women into military and police. Chador is actually much cooler than typical manteau especially if light clothes are worn underneath, though for last ten-fifteen years very cool and light (and short) manteaus are allowed and popular. Khorshid 10:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Hindu women do NOT wear chadors. They cover their heads in temples and in the presence of elders, and they do so with the pallu of their sari, or with the dupatta of their salwar kameez. Some Muslim women in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India burqas, which are not at all the same thing as chadors. Entirely different cut. Your source is completely wrong in the assertions re Hindu women.

As for the statement that chadors and manteaus are pre-Islamic -- that's also unsubstantiated. We know that the upper-class Achaemenids and Sassanids secluded their women, and I've found a picture of a woman with a veil wound tightly around her face. But no chadors.

Well the source seems legitimate. I have read before that chador is traditional Persian clothing from long before Muslim invasion, like the history of mullahs clothes which dates back to around Sasanian times. Khorshid 10:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I've found an 1885 picture of a woman in a chador, and some quotes from Plutarch and El-Guindi. More can be added to the article. Zora 10:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Plutarch was from pre-Islamic times yes? Khorshid 10:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but he describes women being carried in curtained carriages, not chadors. The Achaemenid picture I found, in Tilke, also shows a scarf rather than a chador. Too bad I can't scan and upload that picture, but copyright ...

If you can come up with some actual pictures or quotes of a pre-Islamic chador (specifically, a long semi-circular veil held closed in front -- not just any veil) then I'll of course change my mind. There's one book on the history of Middle Eastern costume I'd like to consult, but it's out of print, rare, and expensive. Not too many resources on ancient Persian women's clothing. Zora 12:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your good work on the article but I think there a couple of misconceptions, Zora. 1) The picture is a problem because it is not a chador, but a Qajar veil of Turcoman origin. For a period of time they imposed it on women in Tehran and maybe some other places. I'm not sure and I dont have a source. But also the picture is not accurate display of Qajar veil. 2) Chador (and this is important) does not have to be held closed in front. Chador is often left open over headscarf. You must have seen this before. When Shia women pray or women who typically wear chador are in the home (with guests) they leave the chador open. There are a few different ways to wear chador. Holding the black chador closed in front like we see on TV is not the traditional way. It is a complex subject. For a bit of humor, women who wear this style of wearing black chador (held closed tightly) is sometimes mockingly called "moosh-mordeh" (scared like a mouse). I think this style was brought by Khomeini, maybe inspired by the Qajar veil? Khorshid 02:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

More work on article

Korshid, what you say sounds reasonable. In such a large country as Iran, there must be (and must have been) many different styles of hijab. The problem is finding reliable sources of information. I think I've done what I can in English! There are probably more sources in Persian. What we need is a better history of Iranian women's clothing, of hijab, and PICTURES, more pictures. Old ones and new ones. Can you work on this? Do you know anyone who can? Zora 03:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Issue of Manteau under Chador

Although the statement is true at home women do typically ware the chador over the regular modest cloths when they have guests over in public outings and in the workplace women who do ware the chadore typically ware a Manteau underneath.

This is the common practice of the Islamic Republic of Iran and many picturial examples can be found on the net.

Removal of old picture, Plutarch quote

While it's fine to have a more modern picture of a chador, it wasn't necessary to remove the older one. I moved the older picture to the history section.

I also restored the quote from Plutarch. One editor took extreme umbrage at Plutarch's description of the Achaemenids as barbarous -- thereby showing a scanty knowledge of classical history and the English language. The Greeks, like many other groups, considered all non-Greeks to be uncivilized -- they didn't speak properly, in Greek, but spoke languages that sounded like "bar bar" to the supercilious Greeks. Hence "barbarians." The term "barbarian" was adopted by the Romans and from Latin, made its way into English. The Greeks, of course, would have considered the English just another kind of barbarian. The meaning has changed over time. It has always been pejorative, but now it is different sort of pejorative.

We have the quote from Plutarch because, strange as it may seem, much of what we know about the Achaemenids is from Greek sources. Very very few Achaemenid texts have survived. The Greeks, however, having fought and eventually destroyed the Achaemenids, were intensely interested in them, and much of their writing has survived. Throwing out evidence because you don't like the wording used by a Greek historian of 2000 years ago is bizarre. It is very clear that this is Plutarch's statement, and not WP's belief that the Achaemenids were barbarians. It is very relevant to the topic, which is the segregation of the women of the anderun behind walls or veils. Zora 06:24, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Personally I hate that picture. :) Its an illustration and a wrong showing of Qajar style veil. Its like a bizarre caricature of the real thing. I suggest to remove as soon as a true photo can be found because in a way this is POV. Khorshid 09:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I can scan some old photos from one of my history books (they're old enough to be public domain) but they're very fuzzy, very bad quality. Zora 09:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I suggest we wait until we can find fair quality photos. :) I tried to find a source for the history showing differences between styles but so far I havent seen anything. There is tho a history preservation website from the Iranian government that has a ton of photos so if I can find that link there is a good chance we can get some good public domain images there. The last time I saw it it was mostly just pictures of Shah and ppl from his government so I dont know if they have anything older. Khorshid 09:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

What do you think of this picture? Zora 10:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no objections but your right. Its not too clear. BTW is the Qajar chador really chador or is more proper as simply "veil"? The book calls it a chador? Khorshid 23:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, book calls it a chador. The picture is from the time of Nasr-ed-din -- those are court ladies on horseback. The pictures in the book are mostly family photos from the court, and in the pictures women are wearing headscarves but no chador. That's in the house. Outside the house nothing shows but the eyes. The book I have, Crowning Anguish, credits the pictures to Dust 'Ali Khan Mo'ayyer al-Mamalek, Yad-dashtha-'i az zendagi-ye khosusi-e Naser al-Din Shah, Tehran, 1983, so if you can find that book, it may have more pictures.

History

The history section seems to be more about history of veiling in Iran rather than chador, perhaps that should be sub-sectioned to highlight this? Regards, --Rayis 10:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Chador is not exclusive of Iranian women?

if you have seen news from Iraq, you can see that many Iraqi women also wear a black veil that only shows their face and hands, isn´t that chador???Lithop 22:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I too was taken aback by this; is this really a fact or is it a sub-fact of a garment worn throughout much of the Arab work...I have even seen it worn in New York and believe it is worn in Afganistan. I came here looking to refresh my memory about an old L&L postcard. Certainly if Iranian women are among those who wear the garment they they should be added as a list as part of other countries.

By throwing Iraqi into the mix the definition of a the garment is concentrated into a part of the definition where the definition is much more generic (a full body covering garment, perhaps with slits for eyes), or am I confused? Worn in a part of the world where the sun is very bright and concentrated in certain religions. But the lead should be as generic as possible, and we are talking about the lead sentence here. [Rosebush]

Buibui

Can someone knowledgeable make a stub or redirect for buibui? It's possibly the same garment? See [1]. Stevage 05:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

POV problems

This edit urgently needs evaluation. It introduced a pro-Islamist and anti-Shah POV not previously present in the article, and not supported by the quotes cited. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 14:20, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

What happened here?

Older revisions of the article have a picture [2] - are people here saying Wikimedia Commons doesn't have one picture of a woman really wearing a bona fide chador? I'm not qualified to assess the precise fashion details myself, but that seems very unlikely. Wnt (talk) 15:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

updated

I've fixed some things in this article which are quite off-target! I am in Iran often and I wear chador, there and overhead abaya here in the USA and am of Persian background and I can tell you, whomeever wrote the last update was a little off target! The chador is worn by all Iranian women regardless of religious background, both sunni and shia women wear it. Its considered a Persian cultural form of hejab so yes, you dont see as many Arab Iranians or Baloochi Iranians wearing it, but some do although most wear their own cultural types of overgarments such as the overhead abaya by the Arab Iranians. Also saying that women in S. tehran wear chador for cultural reasons is a bit presumptive. My family hails from central Iran and there many women wear it for a variety of reaosns...yes some are cultural, others are religious. Its improper to be presumptive! Also before the Revolution most Iranian women of Persian background outside of the upper classes in the cities wore the chador on a daily basis. It did not go away and the revolution did not really revive it as most women wore it in their daily lives. It was really just the upper class, urban women who discarded covering and wore western clothing...again...presumptive. -Madar-e-Ebrahim, Feb 29, 2012, 9am.

More updating

About my recent edits:

• Quote from Plutarch is removed because it's irrelevant by all means. It's quoted from Briant's History of Persian Empire (p. 284.) which doesn't deal with clothing but about existance of concubines and harems. Author is very doubtful about Greek sources (beside it, Plutarch lived 400 years after described period) and reject claims of segregation, but even if it's true it has nothing to do with clothing, only perhaps purdah.
• Islam-related categories, portals and similar doesn't belong here. Both historically and geographically, chador belongs to both pre-Islamic and Islamic periods and only to Iranian World.
• Claims like "There is no pictorial evidence for the chador before Islamic times" or "there's evidence for veiling but not chador" are nonsense. Reliable sources as Iranica show both pictorial evidence from Achaemenid period [3] descibed as chador [4], and references about chadors in Ancient Zoroastrian Pahlavi texts (6th century) [5]. Any further babbling about "mullahs", "pro-Islamist" and "anti-Shah" edits is ridiculous. Irony in all story is that older Pahlavi has banned garments dated from Achaemenids (even worn by ancient shahs) for the purpose of "invoking glorious ancient identity". More irony can be see from above because such charlatan claims (about "Islamic/Arabic" chador) even today comes from self-represented "modern" and "educated" Iranians who actually have no clue about own history and culture. --HistorNE (talk) 11:21, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

pic of young girl of Ahwaz

that pic is not Chador , it is Arabian Chador (i mean Abaa).so i change it.Sonia Sevilla (talk) 14:25, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

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• Chadori.jpg

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