Talk:Hedley Verity

Dates and links

NB: I believe that the new DNB gives Verity's date of death erroneously, as 31st August! Loganberry 16:44, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Why the "See also: Brian Close" link at the end of the article? The reason isn't immediately apparent. JH 20:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I removed it. It was added in Feb 2005. It has no relevance now. Tintin (talk) 05:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

The article is exceptionally pro Verity with 0 citations to explain these statements. I have removed some of the most rediculous, like the uncited statement that leaving him out was "the selecting mistake of the century" and so on. There are numerous others which need to be removed if they can't be cited. SGGH ^speak! 14:17, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Removed section about "bowling action"

I have removed this section because it does not comply with WP:MOS and it presents a personal point of view (i.e., WP:NPOV), rather than documenting a verifiable stated opinion within a secondary source. You cannot just say that you have watched British Pathe, or a match on TV for that matter, and then express views like "Verity bowled off a trotted ten yard run, essentially straight to the wicket, and pivoted in his bowling stride" or "he is shown as closer to Derek Underwood in pace than Bishen Bedi" or "slip often stood quite deep". Does the source actually say these things? If comments like these about the player's style are to be included, they must be verified to written statements in a secondary source.

Furthermore, the person who introduced the section has been told several times about following site guidelines and especially about the need for verifiable sources. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 04:53, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I should add that it breaches WP:PRIMARY as it is one person's interpretation of a movie clip he has seen. The statements used cannot be verified in any secondary source and, as such, they constitute original research: see WP:OR. ----Jack | ^{talk page} 20:52, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Hedley Verity

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Hedley Verity's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "tbat":

• From Len Hutton: "Test Batting and Fielding in Each Season by Len Hutton". CricketArchive. Retrieved 28 April 2010.
• From George Hirst: "Test Batting and Fielding in Each Season by George Hirst". CricketArchive. Retrieved 18 December 2010.
• From Douglas Jardine: "Test Batting and Fielding in Each Season by Douglas Jardine". CricketArchive. Retrieved 2 February 2010. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
• From Norman Yardley: "Test batting and fielding in Each Season by Norman Yardley". CricketArchive. Retrieved 3 August 2010.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 00:30, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Hedley Verity/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Harrias ^talk 07:32, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Links check

• One dab link: Charlie Barnett, presumably Charlie Barnett (cricketer): (Charles John Barnett, 1910–1993), English cricketer?
• External links all working: one requires a subscription, perhaps add {{subscription}} at the end of the title to demonstrate this?
• Otherwise all links check out fine. I'll progress onto the text later. Harrias ^talk 07:32, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
  • All done; the first one had already been linked correctly earlier, so I'm not sure why I did this one and did it wrong! The second is a funny one as if you have library membership, you can usually access the site for free, but you are right and I've added subscription. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:32, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

As usual the prose is of pretty good quality: I could happily pass this for GA as it stands, but given that I'm sure you'll want to take it onto FA, I'll provide a more detailed and picky review for you!

Lead

• "Verity was given a trial in the team and was successful enough to top the English bowling averages." – I'm not keen on this wording: "successful enough" may be suitable to be followed by "get in the team" but I think topping the English bowling averages is more than "successful enough", just being plain successful! Also, "English bowling averages" would probably be better understood if phrased as "national bowling averages".
• "during a tour to Australia in 1932–33." – I'd suggest a note clarifying the cricket notation for seasons: it isn't particularly complicated, but may add something. If you don't reckon it's necessary, feel free to ignore me.
  • Both done; the latter one does not always come up at FAC, but is a good point. For the first one, I notice we have no article on national batting or bowling averages; I think it's begging for a list or something! --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:45, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Early years

• "Verity was born in Headingley on.." – would probably be worth expanding on this slightly to either include Yorkshire or Leeds (I'm not sure if it was part of Leeds by then or still distinct?)
  • I'm not actually sure, but I think it was regarded as part of Leeds long before then. I've put in "area of Leeds" which keeps it ambiguous enough to not be wrong! --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:59, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
• "Soon, Verity decided, with.." – I don't think that 'Soon' is the right word to be used here on its own: maybe 'Soon after'; but I could be wrong! Either way, I don't think the sentence needs the comma after soon: with the clause about his father coming so quickly after it breaks the sentence up and I think gives a slightly different meaning than is intended.
  • Took out soon. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:59, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
• "He could bowl both inswingers and outswingers, possibly copied from the style.." – although this sentence is referenced, the use of "possibly copied" without stating who thinks that it is possibly copied gives the article the appearance of OR. I think it would be worth directly including who thought this.
  • It's a slightly odd one; Hill reports it as common knowledge without saying it was his opinion directly. However, to be safe, I've attributed it to him. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:59, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
• "Verity was given a trial in the cricket nets at Headingley cricket ground." – Was this a trial for Yorkshire, or just a general trial? I assume from the later comment that he wouldn't be effective for Yorkshire that it was for them, but I think it needs mentioning in this sentence if so.
  • I've put it in the previous sentence which mentions Peel and Hirst scouting; I've now said they were scouting for Yorkshire, which I think is a better way of doing it. Does this work for you? --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:59, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
• " ..he produced some defensive batting performances in difficult situations.. " – this might be over picky, so feel free to ignore this, but there is nothing which particularly demonstrates that this is a positive thing, ie "..he produced some good defensive batting..". You and I both know that it is good, but a lay person may not necesssarily know that. But then again, as I say, I might just be over picky!
  • No, I think you are right. It's a funny one as you have to be careful not to give opinions here, so I went for "effective" as this is more neutral and I think describes defensive batting quite well! I changed the other "effective" in the sentence. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:59, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Professional cricketer

• "The team were not particularly sympathetic, for example placing fielders in unhelpful positions." – again, maybe over picky, but the sentence and language seems very simplistic here compared to the rest of the article. On the other hand, there is nothing overtly wrong with the sentence!
  • Tried something different.--Sarastro1 (talk) 11:14, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

First-class debut

• "Early in the 1930, Wilfred.." – presumably this should either say "Early in the 1930 season, Wilfred.." or "Early in the 1930s, Wilfred..".
  • Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 11:14, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Test debut

• " ..against Marylebone Cricket Club.. " – personally I prefer the Marylebone Cricket Club, but I don't suppose it matters really.
  • I'm not too bothered either way, so I changed it. --Sarastro1 (talk) 11:32, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
• "Favoured by pitches which rain made receptive to his bowling, .." – seems slightly strange wording, I'd possibly consider reworking it as "Favoured by pitches made receptive to his bowling by rain, .." but I'm not sure.
  • Neither am I, but I think your wording is better. --Sarastro1 (talk) 11:32, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
• "Having been watched by England selectors, and after taking eleven wickets in the match against the touring New Zealand team, .." – presumably that was a match between Yorkshire and NZ? Might be worth clarifying.
  • Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 11:32, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

World record

• "The team lost heavily to Lancashire. Eddie Paynter scored 152 and hit Verity for five sixes." – These two sentences would probably work better rolled together, something like "The team lost heavily to Lancashire, for whom Eddie Paynter scored 152 and hit Verity for five sixes." The short sentences otherwise break the paragraph up a little.
  • Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 11:32, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
• "including the hat-trick." – The use of 'the' makes it seem like the hat-trick is something the reader should already know about (at least as I read it); I would just use 'a'.
  • Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 11:32, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
• "In the middle of August, Verity was one of the last men added to the Marylebone Cricket Club (MCC) team which was captained by Douglas Jardine." – A note to mention that when the MCC team is one and the same as the England team would be worth making: ie that when England toured abroad they played as the MCC except when playing Tests (or that when the MCC played Tests, they became England, whichever would be easier to understand and reference!)
  • I've added a note which I've used before. It has no reference as such, but I don't think it really needs one as it is such a well-known fact which is easily verifiable from a wide number of places. No-one has challenged it before, so hopefully this will be OK. --Sarastro1 (talk) 11:32, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Bodyline tour

• "After the Test, the tourists travelled to Tasmania to play two matches against the cricket team." – 'the cricket team' seems strange wording, as with England (or the MCC) being a cricket team itself, saying that they were playing "the cricket team" is a rather obvious statement: "the state team", or if you want to spell it out "the state cricket team" would probably be better.
• "Verity resumed his place in the team for the third Test," – 'regained', rather than 'resumed'?
  • Both done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 11:32, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Right, that's as far as I've got so far: as I said at the top, great work as usual! I'll try and get the rest done over the next couple of days: although from your contributions, it doesn't look like you are around at the moment anyway. No rush to get back to this, I'll hold for as long as you need. Harrias ^talk 19:10, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

• All done so far, thanks for the review. --Sarastro1 (talk) 11:32, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Tour of India

• "..Verity was the only other player from the Bodyline to tour," – missing a word, presumably 'series'?
• "Verity guided Barnett, helping to overcome homesickness.." – I'm guessing this is Barnett's homesickness, but it is a little ambiguous, it could refer to either man.
  • Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 17:42, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Career in the mind-1930s

• The start of this paragraph seems like a series of bullet points strung together; but given the analytical information it is presenting, that may not be such a bad thing as normal. But I thought I'd point it out.
  • I've cut a bit and rearranged another bit (it's over detailed anyway and will need pruning pre-FAC). Not sure it's any better, what do you think?
• "Even when he first three devilveries had been struck for four," – I assume each of his first three was struck for four, rather than four runs being scored from the first three?
  • Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 17:42, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
• "South Africa won the second Test, their first Test match win.." – I found the "second Test, first Test" sequence a little difficult to read: it would be worth trying to either vary the language (though I'm unsure how) or break this up a little.
  • Reworded. --Sarastro1 (talk) 17:42, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Tour to South Africa and final season

• "as both teams posted an aggregate of 1,981 runs." – I don't think this is particularly ambiguous, but it might still be worth tightening it with something like "as both teams combined to score an aggregate of 1,981 runs." But as I say: I don't actually know if it is any better, or even necessary.
  • I think it helps! --Sarastro1 (talk) 17:56, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Style and technique

• In the second paragraph, you use the word 'believed' no fewer than four times: perhaps change a couple of these?
  • Done, I think. --Sarastro1 (talk) 17:56, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
• "Verity dismissed Bradman ten times in total, one two occasions twice in the same game." – "on two occasions" was intended I assume?
  • Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 17:56, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Training with the Green Howards

• You being two sentences in a row with 'after' ("After serving..", "After a spell..") Not the end of the world, but if you find another equally good way of saying it, it would be worth changing.
  • Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 17:56, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
• "particularly as his wife joined him." – With the personal life section coming after this, it is the first mention that he is even married: I found it strange personally, but I don't know if there is any way around it.
  • Took this out as it is not really necessary here. --Sarastro1 (talk) 17:56, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

References

• Ref 12: Because you have placed a full stop at the end of "John Wisden & Co.", with the formatting, it means there are two: "John Wisden & Co.. 1932."
• Ref 200: Has two closing parentheses.
  • Both done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 17:56, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

That's the whole article: lovely work, and an easy pass once these issues are resolved. Harrias ^talk 13:15, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

I think that's everything, thanks again. I have to live on past glories at the moment! --Sarastro1 (talk) 17:57, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

BBC article

The BBC have published a good article Hedley Verity: Ashes legend who died for his country --Racklever (talk) 18:29, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Main Page

Fascinating bio. Really well written and interesting. I have learnt something. Congratulations to the writers, particularly Sarastro1.  Giano  11:14, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Article is badly written and fails NPOV

A few examples from the first sections:

Never someone who spun the ball sharply, he achieved success through the accuracy of his bowling.

1. What that hell is this sentence?

On pitches which made batting difficult, particularly ones affected by rain, he could be almost impossible to bat against.

2. "he could be almost impossible to bat against". Needs more puffery, e.g. "he was Jesus"
3. "affected by rain" wikilinked. How incredibly useful. The pitch was wet?

His first season was not a success but, after moving clubs, he began to make a name for himself.

4. "he began to make a name for himself." That just sounds stupid.

Rain had damaged the pitch, making it difficult to bat against spinners.

5. Wet pitch wikilinked again? Th4n3r (talk) 17:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

1. It's a cataphor, and has the same structure as lacking any form of support, it fell over and tall, red, and smelly, he was easy to identify. Is that what you object to? The first clause never someone who spun the ball sharply is awkward, it's true. I can't imagine a bowler with the opposite technique being described as someone who spun the ball sharply, or belonging to the category ones who spin the ball sharply. There must be a readier term. I'd suggest changing the clause to never a spin bowler, except that later on the article says "he switched to bowling spin". I don't know if never a sharp spin bowler is acceptable.
2. It's true that for neutrality it should say he was difficult to bat against. On the other hand, working hard to attain greater neutrality makes articles dry and boring. Maybe the phase "almost impossible to bat against" is in the references, and the article can be changed to say "according to Alan Hill in his biography of Verity, he was almost impossible to bat against, and might in fact have been Jesus." That would be preferable.
3. (and 5.) Yes, it's bad to link to this because the information is quite simple and it could be inserted into this article instead of sending the reader to the other article, and also because it's not clear from the link text ("affected by rain") what article to expect to arrive at. It's also supposed to be bad to repeat links, though I tend to disagree - I think it's good to repeat links if the first occurrence is far away and difficult to find. These shouldn't be links, anyway; instead the article should say "because the wet pitch makes the ball's bounces unpredictable", which seems to be the only useful information in the sticky wicket article. I suppose the point here is that Hedley Verity's accuracy would combine with a wet pitch to create balls which were either deadly accurate or, if they bounced, wildly unpredictable. I don't know anything about cricket, but some explanation like that seems to be needed.
4. Stupid? It sounds completely idiomatic. I mean to say, he began to make a name for himself must be in the biographies of hundreds of different people. It might perhaps be improved with more detail, e.g. he began to make a name for himself as a silent assassin in the night or he began to make a name for himself as a serial bigamist or whatever it was that he did exactly, accurate bowling I think it was.  Card Zero  (talk) 01:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Revert of 7 October

Having been away for a while, I just looked at the recent changes to this article. The edit history mentions "links consolidated". In actual fact, this has taken very specific references, where facts are cited to a page where they can be verified, and replaced them with the form "pp. 13–31", which is not much help if verifying a single fact found for example on p. 18. Perhaps the links could be merged in places, but doing it this way is not good practice for any article. Certainly not for a FA. While I'm not particularly one who thinks "Keep your hands of the FAs!!!", this seems to have gone much too far. Therefore, I've reverted to the previous form (Sorry if anything got lost in the process), but feel free to discuss here further. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:49, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

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